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World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
- Thread starter WeWantMore
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WeWantMore
New member
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
There's no way you can say that. No possible way to know what will happen 30, 40, or 50 years down the line.
There's no way you can say that. No possible way to know what will happen 30, 40, or 50 years down the line.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Why the reluctance for playoffs? Some of the biggest soccer events in the world are playoffs - all the FIFA tournaments, Champions League, etc.
MLS has done it right in that the Supporters Shield is far more valued than any other North American league's regular season championship. What good is the president's cup?
That's true, but also irrelevant. We're not in England. DC United one summer played more games in a season than Manchester United did. The difference, however, was that Man U's longest roadie was for a Champions League match in Moscow. They did that once. DC made that same equivalent trip (a flight from the East coast to the West coast or to Mexico) about 5 or 6 times that season. DC also did it with a much smaller roster and in a season compressed into a much narrower time window.
The reason they want to keep the league schedule at about 30 games is simple - the league isn't as popular. More games means more weeknight games. The rosters are not deep enough to handle that as-is, and weeknight games are always less popular with the fans (and bring in less revenue) than the weekend games. It's not a sustainable proposition.
Like promotion and relegation, it's a nice emotional connection to the European game, but it's completely unsupported by the underlying economics.
Elaborate on what?
Absolutely. It will not happen. Sports have evolved differently over here at all levels, and you can't just undo the century of momentum that governs the role of education, professionalism, and league structure that we have. I'd also note that there's nothing sacred about promotion and relegation, either.
Yes there is. If pro/rel happens in the US, it won't be an actual open pyramid. It will be a closed system where owners have to buy in and get rights to operate a team. Which means it won't be about promotion and relegation at all, it will be about making the current franchise system look like promotion and relegation.
Why the reluctance for playoffs? Some of the biggest soccer events in the world are playoffs - all the FIFA tournaments, Champions League, etc.
MLS has done it right in that the Supporters Shield is far more valued than any other North American league's regular season championship. What good is the president's cup?
That's true, but also irrelevant. We're not in England. DC United one summer played more games in a season than Manchester United did. The difference, however, was that Man U's longest roadie was for a Champions League match in Moscow. They did that once. DC made that same equivalent trip (a flight from the East coast to the West coast or to Mexico) about 5 or 6 times that season. DC also did it with a much smaller roster and in a season compressed into a much narrower time window.
The reason they want to keep the league schedule at about 30 games is simple - the league isn't as popular. More games means more weeknight games. The rosters are not deep enough to handle that as-is, and weeknight games are always less popular with the fans (and bring in less revenue) than the weekend games. It's not a sustainable proposition.
Like promotion and relegation, it's a nice emotional connection to the European game, but it's completely unsupported by the underlying economics.
Elaborate on what?
Absolutely. It will not happen. Sports have evolved differently over here at all levels, and you can't just undo the century of momentum that governs the role of education, professionalism, and league structure that we have. I'd also note that there's nothing sacred about promotion and relegation, either.
Yes there is. If pro/rel happens in the US, it won't be an actual open pyramid. It will be a closed system where owners have to buy in and get rights to operate a team. Which means it won't be about promotion and relegation at all, it will be about making the current franchise system look like promotion and relegation.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
I could MAYBE see a system where the MLS gets big enough to split into two divisions. But you wouldn't see the lower division relegate to USL/NASL. (Granted, MLS would have to be pretty big at that point, in which case USL/NASL probably goes away)
This:
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
I'm very comfortable in saying that the business end of things will preclude it from happening in any reasonable timeframe you might care to name.
I just did, and I'll say it again. Pro/rel will not happen in the U.S. It's far more likely that Europe will eliminate it.
I'm very comfortable in saying that the business end of things will preclude it from happening in any reasonable timeframe you might care to name.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Even that's pretty sketchy. Could you imagine what process you would have to go through to determine the 20 permanent EPL teams, for instance? Even if you went to a league as large as 30 or 32, you'd have several teams with legitimate grips for "why are they in and we're out"?
You've got 8 shoo-ins:
Man Utd
Man City
Arse(nal)
Chelsea
Liverpool
Everton
Aston Villa
Spurs
And a TON of teams that are either mainstays in the EPL now or have had traditional top flight success and are out of the EPL right now that could all make arguments that they belong in the permanent league.
Even that's pretty sketchy. Could you imagine what process you would have to go through to determine the 20 permanent EPL teams, for instance? Even if you went to a league as large as 30 or 32, you'd have several teams with legitimate grips for "why are they in and we're out"?
You've got 8 shoo-ins:
Man Utd
Man City
Arse(nal)
Chelsea
Liverpool
Everton
Aston Villa
Spurs
And a TON of teams that are either mainstays in the EPL now or have had traditional top flight success and are out of the EPL right now that could all make arguments that they belong in the permanent league.
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JF_Gophers
2147483647
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
They could have a playoff to determine the 20 spots!
They could have a playoff to determine the 20 spots!
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Now THAT is a high stakes playoff.
They could have a playoff to determine the 20 spots!
Now THAT is a high stakes playoff.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
If we wanted to, we could create an England -- or several. England is 50k sq mi, 50M people. In comparison:
New York + New England 126k sq mi., 33M people.
California 163k sq mi, 37M people.
Texas 268k sq mi., 25M people.
3 bus leagues capable of supporting 8 teams (throw in some bordering cities like Philly to NY-NE, New Orleans to TX, Phoenix to CA). Put the emphasis on locality and regionalism. Have an American Champions League throughout the year with the US as a proxy Europe.
The cities under that system don't even have to be that big (nor the stadiums). That would be how you create something similar to English association football. Notice also that under this system pro/reg makes sense. You could have regions that run three or four levels deep. The biggest cities could be divided between several teams -- NYC alone could have a half dozen teams scattered through all levels.
If we wanted to, we could create an England -- or several. England is 50k sq mi, 50M people. In comparison:
New York + New England 126k sq mi., 33M people.
California 163k sq mi, 37M people.
Texas 268k sq mi., 25M people.
3 bus leagues capable of supporting 8 teams (throw in some bordering cities like Philly to NY-NE, New Orleans to TX, Phoenix to CA). Put the emphasis on locality and regionalism. Have an American Champions League throughout the year with the US as a proxy Europe.
The cities under that system don't even have to be that big (nor the stadiums). That would be how you create something similar to English association football. Notice also that under this system pro/reg makes sense. You could have regions that run three or four levels deep. The biggest cities could be divided between several teams -- NYC alone could have a half dozen teams scattered through all levels.
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Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Oh, that.
My basic complaint with the MLS playoff structure is that it's set up to ensure that every participant gets at least one home game. I understand why, you gotta sell tickets and you want to give all the home fans a chance to 'see' the playoffs.
That said, the result is a home-and-home series for the opening round that offers very little advantage to the teams that qualified higher in the regular season.
Instead, I'd do this - take the 8 teams that qualify for the playoffs and put them in 2 pools. You have group play to determine the top 2 teams in each group that advance.
The seeds would be determined by regular season finish, and the higher seeds play their games at home. For example:
Seed 1 - Team A: Hosts games against teams B, C, and D.
Seed 2 - Team B: Hosts games against C and D, travels to play at A.
Seed 3 - Team C: Hosts a game against D, travels to play at A and B.
Seed 4 - Team D: Travels to play all 3 of the games.
So, the top seeds have big home-field advantage. 6 of the 8 teams get to host at least one home game. Top 2 teams advance, and then you proceed with the playoffs in a straight elimination bracket just like they have now, culminating with the MLS Cup. This means 3 games per team to get through the 1st playoff round, opposed to 2 currently, but I can live with that.
Long term, I'd consider having the MLS Cup at the higher seeded team's stadium, but the logistics of that would be difficult.
Specifics aside, this is somewhat similar to what I was getting at with the AL/NL comparison. Within the broader structure of MLS, I think there's a unique opportunity to expand beyond the strictures of a North American sports league and really use the opportunities with the Open Cup and CCL to keep two MLS leagues somewhat geographically separate, which could add to the interest when the sides do meet. Likewise, as the gaps have filled in a bit, we've got some nice rivalry potential in various regions (Seattle/Portland/Vancouver, DC/Philly/New York, Toronto/Montreal, etc.) That kind of regionalization can help build rivalries and sell the teams rather than just individuals - while there will still be ample opportunities to sell the other cross-divisional matchups.
Oh, that.
My basic complaint with the MLS playoff structure is that it's set up to ensure that every participant gets at least one home game. I understand why, you gotta sell tickets and you want to give all the home fans a chance to 'see' the playoffs.
That said, the result is a home-and-home series for the opening round that offers very little advantage to the teams that qualified higher in the regular season.
Instead, I'd do this - take the 8 teams that qualify for the playoffs and put them in 2 pools. You have group play to determine the top 2 teams in each group that advance.
The seeds would be determined by regular season finish, and the higher seeds play their games at home. For example:
Seed 1 - Team A: Hosts games against teams B, C, and D.
Seed 2 - Team B: Hosts games against C and D, travels to play at A.
Seed 3 - Team C: Hosts a game against D, travels to play at A and B.
Seed 4 - Team D: Travels to play all 3 of the games.
So, the top seeds have big home-field advantage. 6 of the 8 teams get to host at least one home game. Top 2 teams advance, and then you proceed with the playoffs in a straight elimination bracket just like they have now, culminating with the MLS Cup. This means 3 games per team to get through the 1st playoff round, opposed to 2 currently, but I can live with that.
Long term, I'd consider having the MLS Cup at the higher seeded team's stadium, but the logistics of that would be difficult.
Specifics aside, this is somewhat similar to what I was getting at with the AL/NL comparison. Within the broader structure of MLS, I think there's a unique opportunity to expand beyond the strictures of a North American sports league and really use the opportunities with the Open Cup and CCL to keep two MLS leagues somewhat geographically separate, which could add to the interest when the sides do meet. Likewise, as the gaps have filled in a bit, we've got some nice rivalry potential in various regions (Seattle/Portland/Vancouver, DC/Philly/New York, Toronto/Montreal, etc.) That kind of regionalization can help build rivalries and sell the teams rather than just individuals - while there will still be ample opportunities to sell the other cross-divisional matchups.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
The whole HFA/seeding advantage thing depends on what you're going after. Are you trying to accurately model the actual difference between teams, or are you trying to stack the deck in favor of how the regular season played out? Two-legged does a reasonably good job of the former (better the more games you play); in that instance, the main benefit that a team gains by seeding is, well, seeding... playing weaker teams early so that there's less chance of getting bounced.
The problem with anything other than two-legged is this: for a one-off game, it actually hurts the chances of a higher seed with a big edge on their opponent (due to randomness of outcomes in one game). For best-of-three, MLS tried it and decided that it just didn't work, attendance-wise or schedule-wise.
The whole HFA/seeding advantage thing depends on what you're going after. Are you trying to accurately model the actual difference between teams, or are you trying to stack the deck in favor of how the regular season played out? Two-legged does a reasonably good job of the former (better the more games you play); in that instance, the main benefit that a team gains by seeding is, well, seeding... playing weaker teams early so that there's less chance of getting bounced.
The problem with anything other than two-legged is this: for a one-off game, it actually hurts the chances of a higher seed with a big edge on their opponent (due to randomness of outcomes in one game). For best-of-three, MLS tried it and decided that it just didn't work, attendance-wise or schedule-wise.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
To be clear - I'm not advocating best of three - I'm advocating the first round becoming a group stage with 2 groups of 4 teams, where the higher seed hosts the game. Top 2 in each group advance to a single-elimination knockout stage, with the higher seed hosting.
My problem with the current system is that the two-legged opening round isn't consistent with the later rounds at all.
With the group idea, the max number of games is 5. 3 games in the group, 1 against the other team that advanced, and 1 for the MLS Cup.
Maybe that's too many home games for one team to try and sell - that could be an issue, too.
To be clear - I'm not advocating best of three - I'm advocating the first round becoming a group stage with 2 groups of 4 teams, where the higher seed hosts the game. Top 2 in each group advance to a single-elimination knockout stage, with the higher seed hosting.
My problem with the current system is that the two-legged opening round isn't consistent with the later rounds at all.
With the group idea, the max number of games is 5. 3 games in the group, 1 against the other team that advanced, and 1 for the MLS Cup.
Maybe that's too many home games for one team to try and sell - that could be an issue, too.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
This Seattle chant will drive blocksi crazy.
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This Seattle chant will drive blocksi crazy.
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
west ham v chelsea is the espn game tomorrow.....
everton & man u is the only early game - so i guess that will be on fsc?!?
west ham v chelsea is the espn game tomorrow.....
everton & man u is the only early game - so i guess that will be on fsc?!?
WeWantMore
New member
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
FSC Plus. Everton-United was originally scheduled to be a 10am EST kick off as well, but they moved the game either for security reasons or for TV, I forget which. So when they moved the game, FSC Plus kept the rights to it.
Also, the Monday game which is usually on ESPN2 is only on ESPN3 this week.
FSC Plus. Everton-United was originally scheduled to be a 10am EST kick off as well, but they moved the game either for security reasons or for TV, I forget which. So when they moved the game, FSC Plus kept the rights to it.
Also, the Monday game which is usually on ESPN2 is only on ESPN3 this week.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
that's not good.
i see fsc has arsenal v bolton at 10a. then at noon sportsguy's team vs west brom.
i'm teeing off at 9a and wanted to catch some before... not looking like it now.
that's not good.
i see fsc has arsenal v bolton at 10a. then at noon sportsguy's team vs west brom.
i'm teeing off at 9a and wanted to catch some before... not looking like it now.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Portland already belongs to the Timbers. That is a fantastic soccer area.
Basically, this is going to make me an MLS fan.
Portland already belongs to the Timbers. That is a fantastic soccer area.
Basically, this is going to make me an MLS fan.
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
When I first saw this, I was about to say - the Johnny come lately fans in Seattle do drive me nuts...
And their grammar sucks, too!
This Seattle chant will drive blocksi crazy.
When I first saw this, I was about to say - the Johnny come lately fans in Seattle do drive me nuts...
And their grammar sucks, too!
Jimjamesak
Already insane, UAA making it worse
Re: World Soccer XVIII: A New Season
Hey! A lot of us Seattle fans have been around for a while, it's just recently that we've had a team.
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