Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Except that there is no opposition to the statement that "unions should have bargaining rights."

Except that's what Walker did - "Public unions should have no collective bargaining rights except for COLA's up to the inflation level." Oh, and police and firefighters? By all means, go ahead and unionize since you normally vote Republican.

No right to bargain on salary increases past inflation. No right to bargain on benefits, pension, or anything else.

Seems like opposition to the notion that "unions should have bargaining rights" to me.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Except that's what Walker did - "Public unions should have no collective bargaining rights except for COLA's up to the inflation level." Oh, and police and firefighters? By all means, go ahead and unionize since you normally vote Republican.

No right to bargain on salary increases past inflation. No right to bargain on benefits, pension, or anything else.

Seems like opposition to the notion that "unions should have bargaining rights" to me.

Evidence? (Honest question, I'd be surprised if that's true).

The Dem Lt. Gov. candidate last night was head of the Firefighters Union, for the record.

State's largest police union endorsed Barrett as well...

I strongly disagree with Walker's decision not to include police and fire, but the idea that it was political seems dubious.

 

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Evidence? (Honest question, I'd be surprised if that's true).

There's no other reason for them to be exempted that I can see. It surprised me too, but why else did Walker exempt them?

I suppose it could have been an attempt to limit the damage - cops and firefighters can rally voters alot more than teachers or paper pushers. If you exempt them, maybe they're less likely to rally against him?

 

[unofan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

...a decision that only applies to federal election law, and has no bearing whatsoever on spending in Wisconsin state elections.

States still have to abide by the 1st Amendment. If the Federal government lost on 1st Amendment grounds, what makes you think states will do any better?

 

[carltonbarrett]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

From what I've seen in MA, Cops and Firemen get A LOT more aggressive in regards to protesting, threats, goonism, etc when it comes to contract issues.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

...a decision that only applies to federal election law, and has no bearing whatsoever on spending in Wisconsin state elections.

Details, details.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

There's no other reason for them to be exempted that I can see. It surprised me too, but why else did Walker exempt them?

I suppose it could have been an attempt to limit the damage - cops and firefighters can rally voters alot more than teachers or paper pushers. If you exempt them, maybe they're less likely to rally against him?

So on top of everything else, Walker's also good at playing politics? D*mn him!

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

There's no other reason for them to be exempted that I can see. It surprised me too, but why else did Walker exempt them?

I suppose it could have been an attempt to limit the damage - cops and firefighters can rally voters alot more than teachers or paper pushers. If you exempt them, maybe they're less likely to rally against him?

I think because it's politically easier. It's tough to win an argument when you're portrayed (rightly - if with caveats) as the teacher/school cutter. If your opponents also get to cut ads with cops and firefighters (as they did in Ohio) - ouch. And if that's the calculation, it makes total sense to me to get 90% of what's ideal rather than 0%.

For what it's worth, my asking for evidence was about more than WI. Anyone have any data on how those specific union members vote nationally?

States still have to abide by the 1st Amendment. If the Federal government lost on 1st Amendment grounds, what makes you think states will do any better?

Again, this is true, but - pesky facts again - Wisconsin had no such laws. The money spent this year would have been legal in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, etc... Citizens United had nothing to do with spending here.

The money spent was obviously higher this year, because as the protesters like to say, "the world is watching".

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I think because it's politically easier. It's tough to win an argument when you're portrayed (rightly - if with caveats) as the teacher/school cutter. If your opponents also get to cut ads with cops and firefighters (as they did in Ohio) - ouch. And if that's the calculation, it makes total sense to me to get 90% of what's ideal rather than 0%.

For what it's worth, my asking for evidence was about more than WI. Anyone have any data on how those specific union members vote nationally?



Again, this is true, but - pesky facts again - Wisconsin had no such laws. The money spent this year would have been legal in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, etc... Citizens United had nothing to do with spending here.

The money spent was obviously higher this year, because as the protesters like to say, "the world is watching".

The only reason it was so out of balance in the final analysis is because the national democratic groups pulled out to a large degree and the republican groups did not.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

From what I've seen in MA, Cops and Firemen get A LOT more aggressive in regards to protesting, threats, goonism, etc when it comes to contract issues.

No idea if that's categorically true.

But again, it's not like police and fire said "We're exempted, no worries here Gov!" They went to the capitol and protested like everyone else. Their biggest unions endorsed Barrett. They cut TV ads.

If it was political pay-off, it was the oddest ****ed pay off I've ever seen.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

From what I've seen in MA, Cops and Firemen get A LOT more aggressive in regards to protesting, threats, goonism, etc when it comes to contract issues.

Just for giggles some time, grab a copy of your local police union's newspaper or newsletter. My experience has been that these publications reflect the same reflexive hackery you'd expect from a Teamsters newspaper. The police chief sucks (especially if he's appointed by the mayor), the mayor certainly sucks as does city council, and so does the civilian review board (if there is one). Every personnel action involving a cop is an "outrage" and in "violation of the collective bargaining agreement." Blah, blah, blah.

Just idle speculation, of course, but I'd imagine many of the rank and file are embarrassed by the tone of these things. In the same way many rank and file union members are embarrassed by the things the goons in suits do in their names. We can certainly speculate that's a big part of why thousands of public union members in Wisconsin headed for the exits as soon as they got control of the payment of dues.

The takeaway is clear: the days when greedy, corrupt, uncaring public employee unions can call the shots without some pushback are over. Maybe for good.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

No idea if that's categorically true.

But again, it's not like police and fire said "We're exempted, no worries here Gov!" They went to the capitol and protested like everyone else. Their biggest unions endorsed Barrett. They cut TV ads.

If it was political pay-off, it was the oddest ****ed pay off I've ever seen.

The payoff was from voters who have a very high regard for police and firefighters and might have been turned off if he'd been seen as going after them. Evidently the correct call.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Also, on the money front, 88% of voters made up their minds prior to May 1st. The 12% who decided later - theoretically the ones who should have been influenced by all the Walker spending in the past month - broke overwhelmingly for Barrett. (Exits)

Marquette Law School did their first poll of the race in January, and found Walker +6. Election day, it was Walker +6.9. 6 months and very little movement. I think we ought to have learned by now that money isn't going to get you votes that you simply aren't in a position to get.

The payoff was from voters who have a very high regard for police and firefighters and might have been turned off if he'd been seen as going after them. Evidently the correct call.

Yes, we totally agree here. My point is that it sure doesn't seem like a quid pro quo between the public safety unions and Walker to me.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Also, on the money front, 88% of voters made up their minds prior to May 1st. The 12% who decided later - theoretically the ones who should have been influenced by all the Walker spending in the past month - broke overwhelmingly for Barrett. (Exits)

Marquette Law School did their first poll of the race in January, and found Walker +6. Election day, it was Walker +6.9. 6 months and very little movement. I think we ought to have learned by now that money isn't going to get you votes that you simply aren't in a position to get.



Yes, we totally agree here. My point is that it sure doesn't seem like a quid pro quo between the public safety unions and Walker to me.

No. But it's hard to measure the impact of the dog that didn't bark (just snarled a bit). I'm reminded how Daley I handled threatened union "job actions" back in the day. He'd put both sides in a room. Tell them not to come out until they'd reached a deal. And pointed out he would make life a living h*ll for both sides if they made him look bad. Worked like a charm. Never any big strikes when he was mayor. I'd imagine, in the broad context, the most agressive elements of public safety unions got the message. Going forward, play ball, or else.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

An ad where a cop wounded or a firefighter burned in the line of duty (or even an actor claiming the same) discusses how he'd lose his pension because of Walker's plan would have sunk him faster than the Titanic. Not even sure it would have to be true, since that would depress turnout in rural areas. Exempt them and you take the card out of the deck completely.

 

[WeWantMore]

An ad where a cop wounded or a firefighter burned in the line of duty (or even an actor claiming the same) discusses how he'd lose his pension because of Walker's plan would have sunk him faster than the Titanic. Not even sure it would have to be true, since that would depress turnout in rural areas. Exempt them and you take the card out of the deck completely.

Not arguing this at all. Just saying, that's a entirely different calculation than the one unofan suggested that had Walker saying "I'll do this because those guys vote Republican."

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

It really is the age we're in. Unions have been in steady decline over the last 30 years along with the middle class.

Clearly you didn't get the memo. Public-sector unions will soon makes us Greece. GREECE I TELL YOU!!!




It's like this and like that...

 

[bronconick]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Clearly you didn't get the memo. Public-sector unions will soon makes us Greece. GREECE I TELL YOU!!!




It's like this and like that...

I thought it was all the gay sex that would make us like Greece.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I thought it was all the gay sex that would make us like Greece.

1a and 1b

 

[SteveP]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Silly anarchists shouldn't mess with the nice officer's horse.