Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[XYZ]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Are you really arguing that cuts in federal funding at the state level have no impact on state budgets?

Is that a serious question?

Assuming so, my point is that while I'll gladly go along with the fact we can spend far less on defense and still maintain the securities and protections that we need, that in the (relative) short term our defense spending has little to nothing to do with what Wisconsin, California or any other state might be doing to fix its own problems.

Don't mistake that for some commentary on the merits of Wisconsin's or any other state's methods. If you want to look way out and say that in a pretty little world some of that defense spending could be rerouted so as to ease states' burdens on other areas, that's fine, but in the moment it's a laughable correlation as the states aren't going to sit around waiting for that to happen.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Ummm...the point was how else to cut government spending. I answered that question.

I've no interest in chasing you on your tirade...to cut some government services, while protecting others you seem to prefer.

Here are three concepts you need to master: Federal. State. Local.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Is that a serious question?

Assuming so, my point is that while I'll gladly go along with the fact we can spend far less on defense and still maintain the securities and protections that we need, that in the (relative) short term our defense spending has little to nothing to do with what Wisconsin, California or any other state might be doing to fix its own problems.

Don't mistake that for some commentary on the merits of Wisconsin's or any other state's methods. If you want to look way out and say that in a pretty little world some of that defense spending could be rerouted so as to ease states' burdens on other areas, that's fine, but in the moment it's a laughable correlation as the states aren't going to sit around waiting for that to happen.

Seems to me I've heard something like that before. Oh, I remember now, the Vietnam "peace dividend."

 

[XYZ]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Seems to me I've heard something like that before. Oh, I remember now, the Vietnam "peace dividend."

I'll readily admit I don't get the reference. Unless this is where you're going to label me as a lefty again?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'll readily admit I don't get the reference. Unless this is where you're going to label me as a lefty again?

No, no, no. Bush I coined the phrase, which referred to "all the money we were going to save" because of the end of the cold war. Didn't quite work out that way. I had a brain fart and said Vietnam, but it was Bush I.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

You do understand why we are losing jobs to foreign countries right?

Because they're willing to work for cents on the dollar. If only the working class were willing to accept a 70% pay cut, everything would be fine. (Insert sarcastic eye roll here)

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

(A bunch of "stuff" in quotation marks and cute little nicknames)

But folks all across this nation, and in liberal Wisconsin, are beginning to come to the realization that we can't sustain this madness any more. Most Americans would be willing to pay more in taxes to maintain government services, but not the lifestyles and gold plated benefit plans of overpaid employees.

I find it amusing that you refer to Wisconsin as "liberal Wisconsin". There are just as many bat**** crazy Objectivist morons as there are Marxist and Über-union morons. If not, they outnumber.

 

[pirate]

Wait, wait, wait...

Arguing for paying taxes is now selfish? On what planet is asking everyone, inlcuding yourself (in the royal sense), to pitch more into the common pool and keep less for your own private stash "selfish"?

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Of course, you think driving around in a 12-year old camry is lavish. Either you're dirt poor, or you have no grasp of the English language.

What taxes are you suggesting? Sales tax? Or income taxes on a small percentage of residents? If it is the latter you are saying the majority will vote that the minority should bear the additional burden. If everybody wants to pay more as a percentage, and the vote goes that way I agree everybody is chipping in for the common good.

 

[walrus]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I do hope those of you *****ing about the public sector never complain about long lines at the DMV, delays in court cases, or potholes in your roads. Because you're going to get exactly what you pay for.

We have Unions now and we have all those things listed. How are unions going to fix potholes? Are Union workers better than non union?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I find it amusing that you refer to Wisconsin as "liberal Wisconsin". There are just as many bat**** crazy Objectist morons as there are Marxist and Über-union morons. If not, they outnumber.

That's true.

But I took him to mean liberal in the sense that WI is a bluish state.. I.e., hasn't voted GOP for prez since '84, had 2 Dem Senators from 92-10, etc.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You mean like the check and balance of voting for people who slash the budget? The public has more say over those jobs than any private sector job. Fark, the public sector has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs over the past 2-3 years. Next to housing, it's probably the single weakest sector and responsible for a good .5-1 percent of the national unemployment numbers. Take away the temporary census employees, and it wouldn't shock me if public sector employment has dropped every quarter since 2008 or so.

But again, let's not pretend like it's GOP governors alone cutting the budget.

California: $1 Billion in cuts to education Cuts on cuts on cutsl

Illinois:Cuts to education, Medicaid. (This is as state spending actually increases due to pension costs).

New York:$1.3 billion in education cuts.

That's the 3 biggest Dem states in the country slashing education, if you're keeping score at home.

The difference in Wisconsin, is with the collective bargaining changes -such as ones that allow school districts to choose their own health plan, rather than the union monopolized one - districts actually have a means to offset such cuts. Indeed, some are even running surpluses

As changes to collective bargaining powers for public workers took effect this week, the Kaukauna Area School District expected to swing from a projected $400,000 operating budget shortfall next year to a $1.5 million surplus due to health care and retirement savings.

 

[joecct]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Why should(do) states depend on federal largesse to finance their activities??

 

[geezer]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Wisconsin to Michigan: "Don't step right here - it smells like dog shit."

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We have Unions now and we have all those things listed. How are unions going to fix potholes? Are Union workers better than non union?

Without a union you don't get two extra guys on the pothole crew to lean on their shovels. Duh.

On the other hand, you could contract with a private firm to do the same work faster and for less money, but let's not cloud the issue.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Because you're going to get exactly what you pay for.

If we were getting government services commensurate with the compensation packages (including benefits) we've been paying for, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. The problem is that we have been *overpaying* for the services we've been getting (N.B. that overpaid != rich). We've been "investing" in high-paying jobs for teachers, infrastructure, etc, and the payoff *should* be a well-educated, more productive workforce which grows the economy so much that there's a multiplier effect and we have no trouble collecting enough taxes to cover the costs. That has not exactly been happening - the numbers don't lie.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I find it amusing that you refer to Wisconsin as "liberal Wisconsin". There are just as many bat**** crazy Objectivist morons as there are Marxist and Über-union morons. If not, they outnumber.

Wisconsin isn't liberal? Who knew?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Wisconsin isn't liberal?

It's a lot mor 50/50 than you think. I've lived in Madison, Milwaukee, Waukehsa county and Green Bay. I have a job that takes me all over the state to talk to business owners and engineering managers. I think I know more about what it's like here than you, you [delightful human being]

And yes, I saw your arrogant little post before you edited it, and obviously I've been to Madison before, given my alma mater.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Unions right now have the same problem the Democratic party did back in the early 2000's. Basically, when you sit back and do nothing while your opponents set the narrative, pretty soon their take on you is going to be the public's perception. People agreeing with you (unions should have bargaining rights in this case) isn't necessarily enough to get them to the polls in greater #'s than the opposition. ...., there's no counter argument out of the other side.

You have noticed something pretty significant here.

I would suggest that the situation has more depth to it than you suggest. You say one side "does nothing" while the opponents "set the narrative." It appears to me that what underlies the situation you describe is something like this (I am trying to describe, not judge, to the extent that my limited abilities permit):

The conservatives take their opponents seriously. They acknowledge that their opponents have valid points, and many times they say to undecided / independent voters, "I can see how you might be tempted to think that way. We've examined that point of view, and here is where we find it lacking, and here is what we offer instead, and here is why we think you should choose our option instead of their option."

The progressives seem to be convinced that they are morally superior. They assume without providing justification that they are "right." They denigrate their opponents as "selfish" or "heartless" or "uncaring" or "stupid"* or "evil." They don't even respond to their opponents (look at the response from the progressives when it was first suggested that PPACA might be unconstitutional...bascially, it was a snort and a dismissive wave, no?).

Now, you call the former "setting the narrative" while you call the latter "doing nothing." Those labels also fit the narrative I describe.

Let's pretend we are undecided for a moment, not affiliated with either side. One side seriously tries to engage me in a dialog, the other side projects moral superiority and contempt for anyone who disagrees and offers no serious justification for their viewpoint. Regardless of what you personally believe to be the relative merits of either side, which approach do you think most people would find more congenial to being persuaded?











*(how much vitriol have we seen here directed at people who "get their opinions from Fox News"? how persuasive is it in a conversation to tell the other person, "I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and start humming so that I don't have to listen to what you have to say." ? how receptive am I going to be, if I present for consideration information I've heard or read, for the other person to call me a liar unless I provide justification?)

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Why should(do) states depend on federal largesse to finance their activities??

Probably because its better governing. If the current tax system has taxpayers paying say a 3 to 1 ration for federal to state...why does the govenment need to spend in that ratio if the states can provide a large amount of services better than the federal government? Can't they figure this out?

The answer is that they can and do figure it out. Transfers happen every year. But as spending on stuff like the military continues on the federal level, the states get crowded out.

If anyone's wondering how the US worker can compete globally with the following...the answer is that it cannot:

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

It's a lot mor 50/50 than you think. I've lived in Madison, Milwaukee, Waukehsa county and Green Bay. I have a job that takes me all over the state to talk to business owners and engineering managers. I think I know more about what it's like here than you, you [delightful human being]

Actually I've lived and worked in Wisconsin too, but not long enough to hold myself out as an expert in your class. However, a simple glance at election results over the years proves the point. Take MA as an example. There are surely conservatives there. But even you wouldn't be silly enough to suggest it's not a liberal state. There are plenty of liberals in Austin, but nobody would deny Texas is conservative (except maybe you). Same for Wisconsin. Why is it so important for you to deny what everybody in the room knows? Wisconin is a liberal state. Although that may be changing.

The truth is I AM pretty delightful.