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Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Kepler said:
I thought of all the wingnut bloviation about "the one" when I saw a version of this bumper sticker on a car today. It was not meant to be ironic:

wwrd_reagan_blue.jpg


As somebody else said, "He died for your sins." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

So the MSM haven't treated the Field Marshall like the second coming? Come on, you're usually more honest than that. Uh, anybody in the MSM ever claim Reagan (or anyone else for that matter) made their legs tingle? For reasons we all understand, the MSM have been gushing over this guy from day one (actually way before day one). You may think it's unimportant, but it's not "wing nut bloviation." The MSM don't just love "the one," they LOVE him. And you know it.

As to calling him "the one," well that's what he said about himself, back when he was selling hopium.* "We are the ones we've been waiting for." Talk about bloviation. Check it out at about 1:06 of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EWLeKGI0ro

So if this is how he modestly refers to himself, what's your beef?

*credit John Kass of the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

WeWantMore said:
What I'm saying is, how does our killing of OBL prove that invading Iraq and Afghanistan was the wrong call? Like people have said, there are certainly arguments to be made against the invasions, but to say this proves we shouldn't have been there, that's silly.

Particularly when the guy who gave us the tip on the courier was caught in Iraq. And it's not like OBL fled the mountains of Afghanistan because he was eager to take advantage of the Pakistani school system.

Now, you can say we might have caught the courier tip guy without being in Iraq, and maybe we could have flushed bin Laden out of Afghanistan some other way. I think there's a case to be made for that. But you've done **** all to make that case is all I'm saying.
Click to expand...

I still say we should have splashed a tenth of the cash around the middle east of what we've spent on thes wars...or perhaps $100 billion and I bet we catch AQ in 5 years. If folks were desperate for war then, we could have invaded 5 years later and saved alot. I think the families of thousands of Americans who won't come back would agree.

You're asking me to make a case that thousands of American deaths, billions and unknown collateral damage was 'not worth it'. Call me a small government guy...but I believe the opposite...that those advocating spending this astronomical amount of the country's scarce resources should be asked to justify their outcomes. Not the other way around.

In the end, just what outcome are you looking for? Are you looking for us to 'win'?
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

At the most strict level of logic I think WWM is correct that killing OBL can't be used as an argument about the invasions being the wrong call. At least, there needs to be other linkages to make it a complete argument. It would go something like:

hypothesis H-1: the invasion is the only way to kill OBL
---
fact F-1: a small team was able to kill OBL
conclusion C-1: hypothesis H-1 is false

But all of those sentences can be debated. The real hypothesis is H-2: "a way," not the "only way," in which case F-1 is irrelevant. Or, the hypothesis is really some H-3 that talks about the Taliban and AQ specifically rather than OBL, in which case, again, any fact about OBL is relevant but not conclusive.
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Kepler said:
At the most strict level of logic I think WWM is correct that killing OBL can't be used as an argument about the invasions being the wrong call. At least, there needs to be other linkages to make it a complete argument. It would go something like:

hypothesis H-1: the invasion is the only way to kill OBL
---
fact F-1: a small team was able to kill OBL
conclusion C-1: hypothesis H-1 is false

But all of those sentences can be debated. The real hypothesis is H-2: "a way," not the "only way," in which case F-1 is irrelevant. Or, the hypothesis is really some H-3 that talks about the Taliban and AQ specifically rather than OBL, in which case, again, any fact about OBL is relevant but not conclusive.
Click to expand...

"Very pretty Colonel, but can they fight?"
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Old Pio said:
So the MSM haven't treated the Field Marshall like the second coming? Come on, you're usually more honest than that. Uh, anybody in the MSM ever claim Reagan (or anyone else for that matter) made their legs tingle? For reasons we all understand, the MSM have been gushing over this guy from day one (actually way before day one). You may think it's unimportant, but it's not "wing nut bloviation." The MSM don't just love "the one," they LOVE him. And you know it.

As to calling him "the one," well that's what he said about himself, back when he was selling hopium.* "We are the ones we've been waiting for." Talk about bloviation. Check it out at about 1:06 of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EWLeKGI0ro

So if this is how he modestly refers to himself, what's your beef?

*credit John Kass of the Chicago Tribune.
Click to expand...

To those who act like there wasn't Obama worship... Just look at the actions on the Democratic Underground forums... the whole **** movement was looking for a messianic figure to save them from the horrible bush and the Rethuglicans to take them to the promised land. Obama filled a role and he filled it pretty good... the Greek columns, the NLP laced speeches, etc. You don't get that kind of behavior and campaigning unless people are looking for a noble ideal to fill and you know people will buy... and man did they ever buy. Some of them are still buying.

So, do I believe you (Kepler, et. al.) or my lying eyes? I think I'll just trust my lying eyes. I know what I saw.

edit: what's funny is that somebody like Trump can lie to a certain crowd and get them to buy... but somehow you can't have the same done to you? You think they don't know what you're willing to buy into? That there isn't some cultural zeitgeist to tap?
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Patman said:
To those who act like there wasn't Obama worship... Just look at the actions on the Democratic Underground forums... the whole **** movement was looking for a messianic figure to save them from the horrible bush and the Rethuglicans to take them to the promised land. Obama filled a role and he filled it pretty good... the Greek columns, the NLP laced speeches, etc. You don't get that kind of behavior and campaigning unless people are looking for a noble ideal to fill and you know people will buy... and man did they ever buy. Some of them are still buying.

So, do I believe you (Kepler, et. al.) or my lying eyes? I think I'll just trust my lying eyes. I know what I saw.

edit: what's funny is that somebody like Trump can lie to a certain crowd and get them to buy... but somehow you can't have the same done to you? You think they don't know what you're willing to buy into? That there isn't some cultural zeitgeist to tap?
Click to expand...
Aren't you reaching a bit when you look to the Democratic Underground as your best example of Obama worship? (Cue remarks from people who don't see a difference between them and the MSM)

I mean, you wouldn't expect someone to use our boards as evidence towards mainstream Freddy Meyer fandom.
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

unofan said:
People still read those for anything other than the LOL value? Aren't they just the other side of the coin of the Freepers?
Click to expand...

Both exist just so the other side can draw stupid quotes from them.

The derp index (1 to 4 stars):

4 DU (Far Left)
4 Freep (Far Right)
4 BrietBart (Far R)
3 Newsmax (Solid R)
3 Daily Kos (Solid L)
3 Pajamas Media (Solid R)
3 NRO (Solid R)
2 RedState (Solid R)
2 HuffPo (Solid L)
2 Talking Points Memo (Solid L)
2 RCP (Center-R)
2 Salon (Solid L)
2 Politico (not sure)
1 NYT (Center-L except Solid R on Israel)
1 WSJ (Center-R except Center-L on foreign policy)
1 CS Monitor (no discernible bias)

Not really a shock that the intellectual quality of the arguments is inversely proportional to its stridency.
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

5mn_Major said:
I still say we should have splashed a tenth of the cash around the middle east of what we've spent on thes wars...or perhaps $100 billion and I bet we catch AQ in 5 years. If folks were desperate for war then, we could have invaded 5 years later and saved alot. I think the families of thousands of Americans who won't come back would agree.

You're asking me to make a case that thousands of American deaths, billions and unknown collateral damage was 'not worth it'. Call me a small government guy...but I believe the opposite...that those advocating spending this astronomical amount of the country's scarce resources should be asked to justify their outcomes. Not the other way around.
Click to expand...

No, I am not. I'm asking you to justify or at least explain your original statement, which was quite stupid. You haven't done so.

I am quite eager to hear your 5-year, $100 billion plan to catch Al Qaeda though.
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Kepler said:
Both exist just so the other side can draw stupid quotes from them.

The derp index (1 to 4 stars):

4 DU (Far Left)
4 Freep (Far Right)
4 BrietBart (Far R)
3 Newsmax (Solid R)
3 Daily Kos (Solid L)
3 Pajamas Media (Solid R)
3 NRO (Solid R)
2 RedState (Solid R)
2 HuffPo (Solid L)
2 Talking Points Memo (Solid L)
2 RCP (Center-R)
2 Salon (Solid L)
2 Politico (not sure)
1 NYT (Center-L except Solid R on Israel)
1 WSJ (Center-R except Center-L on foreign policy)
1 CS Monitor (no discernible bias)

Not really a shock that the intellectual quality of the arguments is inversely proportional to its stridency.
Click to expand...

Nice list. But it doesn't do anything to refute the irrefutable, that vast tracts of the MSM were and still are in the tank for "the one."
 
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Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

WeWantMore said:
No, I am not. I'm asking you to justify or at least explain your original statement, which was quite stupid. You haven't done so.

I am quite eager to hear your 5-year, $100 billion plan to catch Al Qaeda though.
Click to expand...

I said: Arent we glad we're in Afghanistan and Iraq about now?

You said: Not sure what exactly this has to do with catching bin Laden?

Its quite clear fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not helping to find OBL as he's already dead. Perhaps a tad obvious to some.

OK...now your turn...why do you think we should be there if not to catch OBL?
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

5mn_Major said:
I said: Arent we glad we're in Afghanistan and Iraq about now?

You said: Not sure what exactly this has to do with catching bin Laden?

Its quite clear fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not helping to find OBL as he's already dead. Perhaps a tad obvious to some.

OK...now your turn...why do you think we should be there if not to catch OBL?
Click to expand...

So, you're saying that as soon as we caught bin Laden, we should have pulled out of the two countries the next day?

Still waiting on that super duper 5 year plan...
 
Re: Osama bin Laden Declared Dead

Slap Shot said:
Right, which is why I posted it here and not the Obama thread.
Click to expand...

I've always liked Panetta, an adult and a pro. Given the success of the operation to get OBL, he might be inclined to color the after action discussion just a tad to support his president.
 
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