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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

One of the myths lefties tell their kids around the campfire is: "if we'd just spend more on education, we'd get a better result. Lower the student/teacher ratio to say, one to one, and by golly you'd see those test scores sky rocket." 'Course the countries that are beating our azz in education don't have nearly the number of teachers per student that we do. Hmmm. What accounts for that? In a week when one teacher's union is demanding ED medication, one doesn't have to look very far.

The only sector in our economy where unions are growing in power and membership is the public sector. That means unionized public employees get to vote on who their "bosses" will be. Here's a huge surprise, the slugs running for public office cater to these union thugs by promising them the moon. As long as times are good, no problem. But when the economy slows, look out. And don't even talk about quality when it comes to teachers. Don't even suggest that maybe bad teachers should be fired. NYC has thousands of substandard teachers, still drawing salaries, who've been culled from the heard, but can't be fired. Instead, they report to "work" everyday and spend their time reading the paper, watching TV and smoking.

A few years ago you may recall a federal judge decided the Kansas City school system was his own private experimental lab. He took over the system and mandated millions of dollars of expenditures for green houses, fishing ponds, velodromes and the like. His "reasoning" was that if inner city kids had access to the same facilities as kids from wealthier neighborhoods, they would do better in class. Here's a big surprise, they didn't. So now those lousy KC inner city schools are equipped with world class doo dads, they're still not educating their students. Maybe they need to sped MORE money.

In the meantime, teacher's unions fight like h**l to make sure inner city kids are required to go to these failing schools. Marva Collins of Chicago's West Side Prep fought the unions there constantly. One of my favorite moments was a 60 Minutes segment on Collins. Morley Safer was interviewing a beautiful little girl who had flunked out of a Chicago pubic school. He asked her who her favorite auther was. Her answer? Chaucer!

Even if she was just showing off, the fact remains this 10 year old knew there was somebody named Chaucer, which I suspect the majority of little kids in Chicago can't say. Teacher's unions are adamantly opposed to any change in the status quo because those changes threaten their political power. For the last several Democratic conventions, the largest single group of delegates has been unionized teachers.

The largest teacher's union, NEA, disguises what it's all about by calling itself the "National Education Association." Sounds like a non profit devoted to improving education right? Not a power house, bare knuckles union devoted to what all unions are devoted to: improving salaries, working conditions and benefits, thus increasing membership and political clout. I hope I'm not being too Jesuitical to point out those goals do not automatically translate into better quality teachers, which might have some positive upside for the quality of education our kids receive.

I worked with a reporter in Houston whose beat was Austin. And the word "union" would never pass his lips. He referred to teachers "groups," which the unions certainly are. But the use of the word "groups" obfuscated the true nature of these organizations and failed to fully inform our listeners. Just as I believe many millions of Americans are a little fuzzy on what the NEA and its affiliates are all about. If you're a union, why not just call yourself a union. Why do they think they need to shade the truth? Could it be that many Americans are still laboring under the delusion that teachers care first about the kids and themselves second?

I enjoy your rants as much as the next poster, but this has just about every unproven stereotype and right wing talking point all contained in one post. Well done! :D I'm going to pick out a few doozies...

" 'Course the countries that are beating our azz in education don't have nearly the number of teachers per student that we do. Hmmm. What accounts for that?." They don't? Proof, please.

"the slugs running for public office cater to these union thugs" - Yup, don't want to cross those 80 year old woman English teacher thugs. More dangerous than the Mafia.

"Don't even suggest that maybe bad teachers should be fired" - Forget about suggesting it, teachers are laid off and fired left and right during this recession. Are you saying this hasn't happened?

"In the meantime, teacher's unions fight like h**l to make sure inner city kids are required to go to these failing schools. " - The problem is that you can't move every kid out of these schools. There isn't enough room in surrounding private schools to take them. That means even if a few lucky kids get to go elsewhere, the vast majority are still stuck. Vouchers in of themselves aren't a bad concept. The problem is you still have to improve the existing school for the remaining students, and not say "Oh, we gave them vouchers to they're all set". Most students due to capacity constraints won't get to benefit.

"He referred to teachers "groups," which the unions certainly are. But the use of the word "groups" obfuscated the true nature of these organizations and failed to fully inform our listeners." - What is the point of this one? People can't figure out a teachers union from a teachers group? Yikes.

"Could it be that many Americans are still laboring under the delusion that teachers care first about the kids and themselves second?" - Not sure what your teachers did to you to cause all this bitterness, but teaching is like any other profession. Generally you have to like it to do a good job. In this particular job, it can't be the salary that motivates people because the salaries are relatively low. My take on my teachers is that most of them cared at least as much about educating us as they naturally would about taking care of their families financially. I had some idiots and some exceptional ones too.

All in all, you really need to start looking at issues from a perspective other than "I hate the world and want to get even". Its really clouding your opinion on basically every issue you post about.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Couple of education annecdotes which don't have anything to do with unions, but may be reflective of some of the reasons why we don't educate all of our kids.

In the 80's there was an African American principal in a Houston grade school who used some unusual techniques that apparantly helped his kids improve their scores dramatically on standardized tests. The response by the suits? Why they assumed the principal was cheating and investigated him to a fair thee well. Ultimately, IIRC, they concluded he wasn't cheating, did a 180 and decided maybe other principals should emulate those techniques. Good idea.

After Joe Clark became a national figure at Eastside High in Patterson, he put in an appearance on the Phil Donahue show. All Donahue wanted to discuss was what was going to happen to the handful of 22 year old "sophomores" Clark had booted. Joe struggled to explain that there were adult education classes, GED classes, and other options for these kids if they truly wanted to get their diplomas. Donahue persisted 'til a clearly frustrated Clark said (I'm paraphrasing): "I don't care what happens to them. I've got 1700 kids to educate at Eastside and they come first." Donahue looked like somebody had stomped on his puppy.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

"Don't even suggest that maybe bad teachers should be fired" - Forget about suggesting it, teachers are laid off and fired left and right during this recession. Are you saying this hasn't happened?
The part you are missing is that with a union involved, the worst people don't get fired or layed off, the newest/cheapest teachers do. Now sometimes those 2 groups overlap but if a school needs to shave $100k from its budget would it rather cut 3 cheaper teachers or 2 more expensive teachers that might not be carrying their weight? With union in the middle the choice is already decided for them. You have to cut the 3 cheaper teachers.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

The part you are missing is that with a union involved, the worst people don't get fired or layed off, the newest/cheapest teachers do. Now sometimes those 2 groups overlap but if a school needs to shave $100k from its budget would it rather cut 3 cheaper teachers or 2 more expensive teachers that might not be carrying their weight? With union in the middle the choice is already decided for them. You have to cut the 3 cheaper teachers.

I was talking about incompetent teachers without regard to the economic situation. Bad teachers should be fired, period.

Plus the fact that "The One" and his compliant Dem majorities in the congress can always allocate 26B to help keep unionized teachers and other municipal employees working, just in time for mid terms. What difference does it make that down the road poor kids will have less to eat?
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I was talking about incompetent teachers without regard to the economic situation. Bad teachers should be fired, period.

Plus the fact that "The One" and his compliant Dem majorities in the congress can always allocate 26B to help keep unionized teachers and other municipal employees working, just in time for mid terms. What difference does it make that down the road poor kids will have less to eat?
Oh I agree with you. I was just trying to help explain the difference between laying off the low man on the totem pole and firing someone for sucking at his job. Unions in all forms are notorious for protecting back workers.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Oh I agree with you. I was just trying to help explain the difference between laying off the low man on the totem pole and firing someone for sucking at his job. Unions in all forms are notorious for protecting back workers.

You're absolutely right. Besides, all of the male unionized teachers really need their Cialis!

Since I've got Rover on "ignore," I was sorta responding to him. If he weren't able to beg the quetion and argue ad hominem, he'd be rendered mute.
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Sorry, missed that. I suffer more from, "Oh ****, the boss is coming. Hide the window..... Crap, where was I?"
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2


Well, find me one program from any administration that's been uniformly praised by all parties. Race to the Top is specifically about performance pay for teachers and is not popular with the unions.

The DoE has similarly endorsed many of the school reforms here in DC, which have included dismissal of ineffective teachers and performance pay for those that agree to the terms - the union leadership was initially opposed, but the rank and file approved it overwhelmingly.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Well, find me one program from any administration that's been uniformly praised by all parties. Race to the Top is specifically about performance pay for teachers and is not popular with the unions.

The DoE has similarly endorsed many of the school reforms here in DC, which have included dismissal of ineffective teachers and performance pay for those that agree to the terms - the union leadership was initially opposed, but the rank and file approved it overwhelmingly.

Stop trying to interject reality into this thread dammit! Neo-conartist orthodoxy is that teachers unions are all powerful and call the shots. Don't break that narrative with the fact that the admin supposedly under their sway is doing something they don't support.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Well, find me one program from any administration that's been uniformly praised by all parties. Race to the Top is specifically about performance pay for teachers and is not popular with the unions.

The DoE has similarly endorsed many of the school reforms here in DC, which have included dismissal of ineffective teachers and performance pay for those that agree to the terms - the union leadership was initially opposed, but the rank and file approved it overwhelmingly.

Forty states applied for the first round of the competition. Only Delaware and Tennessee won funds.


So, if it's such a fine deal, why are states that generally have solid education systems based on objective criteria like graduation rates, standardized testing, etc., like Minnesota, dropping out of the race? In a stressed economy, are they not willing to waste too much money on a bureaucratic "dog and pony show"? Maybe the level of federal overreach into the local and state educational process is just too much for the "rewards".
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

So, if it's such a fine deal, why are states that generally have solid education systems based on objective criteria like graduation rates, standardized testing, etc., like Minnesota, dropping out of the race? In a stressed economy, are they not willing to waste too much money on a bureaucratic "dog and pony show"? Maybe the level of federal overreach into the local and state educational process is just too much for the "rewards".

They just announced 18 more states plus DC as finalists in the 2nd round of funding:

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748703977004575393062887310840.html

As for why states with a good track record aren't bidding, that's probably because this particular grant program is all about changing what doesn't work. If Minnesota feels that it ain't broke, then don't fix it.

If your issue is 'federal overreach,' then is there any policy from the Dept of Ed. that will make you happy?

Again, I'm not satisfied with all the details of Race to the Top - but you cannot question that it's a huge shift in education priorities and structure. The arguments earlier in this thread about defending teachers unions as liberal orthodoxy and the policy of this particular administration are baseless.

And this isn't just a federal thing. As I mentioned, DC is doing many of these same things of their own accord.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Exactly. The point of race to the top is to reward states looking to make large improvements. If everything is just peachy out in Minnesota, their chances of winning the contest are small, so I don't blame them for not going through the process.

Sounds like somebody just wants to complain. ;)
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Without once mentioning the conservative buzzwords "teachers unions" kindly point out to us where the widespread waste is in education that you'd like to cut.

In my kids school system, start with 3 guidance counselors and 1 asst counselor. Then look at 16 ed techs. The school has 350 kids. Then look at the administration, way too many folks in the office pushing paper to nowhere.
 
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