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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

And good for them Bob if that's the case. From reading this thread though and comments from the usual idiots, I'm trying to glean what the way forward is here. Sounds like from the righties its lets cut education because that somehow sticks it to all powerful teachers unions, the same people who generally get laid off come budget crunch time. I'd saying that's stark raving stupid as 1) unions really have little power nowadays, and 2) how is cutting education funding going to make our country better able to compete with the rest of the world? To the second point, I've yet to see anybody even attempt an answer.
As I stated, I'm not necessarily for cutting more funding from education (that is more of a case by case issue of determining if a district has too many administrators or guidance counselors). What I do have an issue with is the constant asking for more and more money "for the children." When its pretty obvious to me that throwing more money at education isn't really going to help our children learn more. All of us in our own lives have learned to cut back or not spend more than we did last year because many of our incomes have gone stagnant through this recession. Why should education be any different? They need to learn to work within their means.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

And good for them Bob if that's the case. From reading this thread though and comments from the usual idiots, I'm trying to glean what the way forward is here. Sounds like from the righties its lets cut education because that somehow sticks it to all powerful teachers unions, the same people who generally get laid off come budget crunch time. I'd saying that's stark raving stupid as 1) unions really have little power nowadays, and 2) how is cutting education funding going to make our country better able to compete with the rest of the world? To the second point, I've yet to see anybody even attempt an answer.

My Dad was a career teacher, and despite being pretty middle of the road on political views, he really disliked the teacher union. But, whether it's viewed as a good thing or not, I'd generally agree that unions don't have nearly the influence they used to (though they are still troublesome in a number of aspects, in my view).

No easy answer here. There's no magic way to make education efficient, and the entrenched interests don't want to see any change if it infringes on their turf and interests in the slightest. Really, it mirror's the overall federal problem, where most people say the deficits are a problem, but people are unwilling to take steps to practically try to fix things, as too many special interests hold onto every iota of spending.

Of course spending less, viewed in isolation, won't make education better. But, the benefits of spending more, as we've done in recent decades, is murky at best. As with so many things in this country, we end up just throwing money at something to try to feel good about a given area, without actually doing substantive things to make it better.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

As I stated, I'm not necessarily for cutting more funding from education (that is more of a case by case issue of determining if a district has too many administrators or guidance counselors). What I do have an issue with is the constant asking for more and more money "for the children." When its pretty obvious to me that throwing more money at education isn't really going to help our children learn more. All of us in our own lives have learned to cut back or not spend more than we did last year because many of our incomes have gone stagnant through this recession. Why should education be any different? They need to learn to work within their means.

I'm all for that. If more conservatives had your take on this, I wouldn't be out here commenting on this subject. In your district, why are they asking for more money? If its that the schools are rundown, overcrowded, etc I can see the reasons for that. If its to gold plate the cafeteria tables, then no obviously. Putting you aside for a minute, I don't understand the anti-education stance in general on the right.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm all for that. If more conservatives had your take on this, I wouldn't be out here commenting on this subject. In your district, why are they asking for more money? If its that the schools are rundown, overcrowded, etc I can see the reasons for that. If its to gold plate the cafeteria tables, then no obviously. Putting you aside for a minute, I don't understand the anti-education stance in general on the right.
Honestly I don't think the right is anti-education. I think they are against an open checkbook and sick of the "its for the children" mentality of spending more and more. Higher education costs are just as bad as health care and no one is going after them for not keeping costs undercontrol and constant raising tuition.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It's not an anti-education stance. It's anti-waste in education. You really have a hard time distinguishing the two don't you?
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Honestly I don't think the right is anti-education. I think they are against an open checkbook and sick of the "its for the children" mentality of spending more and more. Higher education costs are just as bad as health care and no one is going after them for not keeping costs undercontrol and constant raising tuition.

They get away with it cause they have a stranglehold on the job market. Try getting a decent job without a degree nowadays. Pretty difficult. Colleges are competing for students all the time yet they can continue to raise their rates up to (last article I read) 24% a year.

It's ridiculous.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm all for that. If more conservatives had your take on this, I wouldn't be out here commenting on this subject. In your district, why are they asking for more money? If its that the schools are rundown, overcrowded, etc I can see the reasons for that. If its to gold plate the cafeteria tables, then no obviously. Putting you aside for a minute, I don't understand the anti-education stance in general on the right.

Problem is, there's no clear way of knowing what the money is really for. I live in a college town, and there are regularly ballot propositions for additional education funding for the local schools, which almost always pass. I read the writeups on the propositions, and it's never clear how the money will be used in the context of overall education spending.

I agree that I don't think anyone is anti-education. It's more an argument over how much and how money should be spent, and what value is derived from spending more/less.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It's not an anti-education stance. It's anti-waste in education. You really have a hard time distinguishing the two don't you?

True, but that's just rhetoric. We have some well run school districts in Minnesota that have very little to no waste (I've seen the numbers). Yet, continually they are hamstrung year after year with budget cuts. And continually the same argument is made over and over again. Cut the waste.

As a principal or superintendent of a school district that must get pretty old to hear that over and over again.

Sadly the largest cost driver for public employees is their health care. If you run a large business (say the State) and you fund thousands of employees and their health care costs go up 5, 10, 20% a year and then your budget needs to be cut by the same 5, 10, 20% a year. Somethings got to give. It's not really waste when it's someone's health care is it?
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It's not an anti-education stance. It's anti-waste in education. You really have a hard time distinguishing the two don't you?

Without once mentioning the conservative buzzwords "teachers unions" kindly point out to us where the widespread waste is in education that you'd like to cut.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Yeah but whether they are or not the Right sure does love to demonize teachers because they have a union. Remember, it isn't usually the teachers that are spending the money districts are bleeding.

The administrations in districts should be held accountable for their misappropriation of funds. They almost never are so they continue to do it.

The taxpayers are to blame as well though. When I was in HS we had two separate referendums, one for money to enhace the school itself, get new books, update security, fix up the rooms and so on and the other was for a new football stadium because people were sick of two schools sharing a cruddy field. Guess which one passed. (and another one passed a couple years later for a basketball/recreation center)

Because of that decision the decision to fix up the school with funds got delayed a few years when it became way more costly so the district needs to ask for money every year just to try and do it.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Honestly I don't think the right is anti-education. I think they are against an open checkbook and sick of the "its for the children" mentality of spending more and more. Higher education costs are just as bad as health care and no one is going after them for not keeping costs undercontrol and constant raising tuition.

Bingo. The assumption that whatever the teacher's unions want is all good for education and for the children is also distasteful. The right isn't anti-education, the right simply wants to get off the merry-go-round of higher spending with no results - usually at the behest of union initiatives. It's time for something different in our approach.

If you want a good example of how teacher's unions try to operate, check out this back-and-forth between NJ Governor Chris Christie and a teacher (skip to 0:38). She starts out whining about how she needs to be paid more (even after Christie reminds her that she enjoys fabulous benefits and paid vacations which makes her total compensation somewhere in the 80k/year range), and when Christie tells her that if she doesn't like it, she can find a different line of work, she immediately changes her tune and tells him that teachers do it "because they love it." Not 10 seconds after kvetching about her pay (meaning, she's in it for the money), she tries to play the "we're all about the kids" card. Unions in a nutshell.

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

True, but that's just rhetoric. We have some well run school districts in Minnesota that have very little to no waste (I've seen the numbers). Yet, continually they are hamstrung year after year with budget cuts. And continually the same argument is made over and over again. Cut the waste.

As a principal or superintendent of a school district that must get pretty old to hear that over and over again.

Sadly the largest cost driver for public employees is their health care. If you run a large business (say the State) and you fund thousands of employees and their health care costs go up 5, 10, 20% a year and then your budget needs to be cut by the same 5, 10, 20% a year. Somethings got to give. It's not really waste when it's someone's health care is it?

I don't disagree. But nearly all school funding from the state (as it was explained to me) is based on a per-student-day basis. You can't really make cut without cutting it for everyone. Well, I mean you can, but I just don't see it happening.

There are inequities in the funding and there will never be enough money. You can do two things: Raise revenue or cut costs. Minnesota schools do both. Between levies and budget cuts they have to make it work.

You can go back to where the schools are getting their money, the state, and attempt to understand why the budgets are being cut. You have a pie of a given size and as other programs take up shares of the pie you have less to work with. So you can increase school spending but you're going to have to cut somewhere else. What are you going to cut?
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

One of the myths lefties tell their kids around the campfire is: "if we'd just spend more on education, we'd get a better result. Lower the student/teacher ratio to say, one to one, and by golly you'd see those test scores sky rocket." 'Course the countries that are beating our azz in education don't have nearly the number of teachers per student that we do. Hmmm. What accounts for that? In a week when one teacher's union is demanding ED medication, one doesn't have to look very far.

The only sector in our economy where unions are growing in power and membership is the public sector. That means unionized public employees get to vote on who their "bosses" will be. Here's a huge surprise, the slugs running for public office cater to these union thugs by promising them the moon. As long as times are good, no problem. But when the economy slows, look out. And don't even talk about quality when it comes to teachers. Don't even suggest that maybe bad teachers should be fired. NYC has thousands of substandard teachers, still drawing salaries, who've been culled from the heard, but can't be fired. Instead, they report to "work" everyday and spend their time reading the paper, watching TV and smoking.

A few years ago you may recall a federal judge decided the Kansas City school system was his own private experimental lab. He took over the system and mandated millions of dollars of expenditures for green houses, fishing ponds, velodromes and the like. His "reasoning" was that if inner city kids had access to the same facilities as kids from wealthier neighborhoods, they would do better in class. Here's a big surprise, they didn't. So now those lousy KC inner city schools are equipped with world class doo dads, they're still not educating their students. Maybe they need to sped MORE money.

In the meantime, teacher's unions fight like h**l to make sure inner city kids are required to go to these failing schools. Marva Collins of Chicago's West Side Prep fought the unions there constantly. One of my favorite moments was a 60 Minutes segment on Collins. Morley Safer was interviewing a beautiful little girl who had flunked out of a Chicago pubic school. He asked her who her favorite auther was. Her answer? Chaucer!

Even if she was just showing off, the fact remains this 10 year old knew there was somebody named Chaucer, which I suspect the majority of little kids in Chicago can't say. Teacher's unions are adamantly opposed to any change in the status quo because those changes threaten their political power. For the last several Democratic conventions, the largest single group of delegates has been unionized teachers.

The largest teacher's union, NEA, disguises what it's all about by calling itself the "National Education Association." Sounds like a non profit devoted to improving education right? Not a power house, bare knuckles union devoted to what all unions are devoted to: improving salaries, working conditions and benefits, thus increasing membership and political clout. I hope I'm not being too Jesuitical to point out those goals do not automatically translate into better quality teachers, which might have some positive upside for the quality of education our kids receive.

I worked with a reporter in Houston whose beat was Austin. And the word "union" would never pass his lips. He referred to teachers "groups," which the unions certainly are. But the use of the word "groups" obfuscated the true nature of these organizations and failed to fully inform our listeners. Just as I believe many millions of Americans are a little fuzzy on what the NEA and its affiliates are all about. If you're a union, why not just call yourself a union. Why do they think they need to shade the truth? Could it be that many Americans are still laboring under the delusion that teachers care first about the kids and themselves second?
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Without once mentioning the conservative buzzwords "teachers unions" kindly point out to us where the widespread waste is in education that you'd like to cut.

I'd respond, but Handy, Red Cloud, and Old Pio pretty much said what I would have except much better.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I don't disagree. But nearly all school funding from the state (as it was explained to me) is based on a per-student-day basis. You can't really make cut without cutting it for everyone. Well, I mean you can, but I just don't see it happening.

There are inequities in the funding and there will never be enough money. You can do two things: Raise revenue or cut costs. Minnesota schools do both. Between levies and budget cuts they have to make it work.

You can go back to where the schools are getting their money, the state, and attempt to understand why the budgets are being cut. You have a pie of a given size and as other programs take up shares of the pie you have less to work with. So you can increase school spending but you're going to have to cut somewhere else. What are you going to cut?

True. But you have the funding formula wrong. The school receives funding from the Federal, State, and local governments. And at any time one of those three could cut their funds. Try balancing that. T-Paw has been blatantly holding funds back from the schools and paying them at later dates to help balance his budgets.

Yes, they do have to make it work. And every day they do the best they can (most of them) with what they have.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

True. But you have the funding formula wrong. The school receives funding from the Federal, State, and local governments. And at any time one of those three could cut their funds. Try balancing that. T-Paw has been blatantly holding funds back from the schools and paying them at later dates to help balance his budgets.

Yes, they do have to make it work. And every day they do the best they can (most of them) with what they have.

Right, I forgot those two. It's difficult I know, but I don't think anyone outside of Rover would disagree that there are places the fat could be trimmed.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Right, I forgot those two. It's difficult I know, but I don't think anyone outside of Rover would disagree that there are places the fat could be trimmed.

And on the last page...

:

Now, should educating look for efficiencies? Sure. I'd start with hundred million dollar school construction projects for one...

Looks like wherever you were educated failed you in the reading comprehension department.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Honestly I don't think the right is anti-education. I think they are against an open checkbook and sick of the "its for the children" mentality of spending more and more. Higher education costs are just as bad as health care and no one is going after them for not keeping costs undercontrol and constant raising tuition.

You like open checkbooks for the military. :confused:
 
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