Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Take this scenerio: the people blamed for bringing down the towers were Catholic. The Pope wants to build a church two blocks away from the hole in the ground. Does anyone think that people would object? NOT A CHANCE!

So, I see both you and TBA have reviewed the history of Islamic jurisprudence.

Both of you make the false assumption that the two religions are approximately equal in that religions tend to have similar properties... without finding out why certain religions are the way they are... further you both pre-suppose that there must exist the ability for some "moderate" (liberal) strain of the religion to occur.

You see, the issue is that this is what Islam does... its a military theology. Look at the history of the Quran and Islam... its a warfare doctrine. Without the breaking of the principle of abrogation you won't be able to break the nastier parts of the book.

Can one really say that Jesus Christ is even remotely comparable to Mohammed and Islam even when using this incredibly farcical practice of relativism?

Bottom line... this mosque project... its EXACTLY what we say it is because it is EXACTLY who they are. Look at their society, look at what their people say. Without eyes on this the mosque would happen and within a year we'd see sermons on the level of the Finsbury Park mosque (do you know what that is Timmy? I bet you don't.) just as we've seen sub-rosa radicals in England as witnessed by Channel 4... and many of those were government aligned "moderates".

The thing is, you don't know who they are... that is to say Islam at large... and you don't want to know because you've already been "told" what they are... why don't you find out what these guys are all about. Recall that Islam doesn't mean "peace"... it means "submission"... and that isn't the work of a conservative whackjob... it means total submission to the God of the Quran. A religion whose "most perfect person" had sex with a 9 year old girl. Realize this, realize that book, and you'll realize Islam.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Stop the press. Goodbye Iraq. Hello Freedom base.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq_americans_head_home

Seven years and five months after the U.S.-led invasion, the last American combat brigade was leaving Iraq, well ahead of President Barack Obama's Aug. 31 deadline for ending U.S. combat operations there.

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Stop the press. Goodbye Iraq. Hello Freedom base.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq_americans_head_home

And hand the country over to who?/what?

What's the over/under on return to a despot?
Which may not be a bad thing if he's OUR despot

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

One down, one to go.

Although it isn't as if we're out, by a long shot.

That presence is far from over. Scatterings of combat troops still await departure, and some 50,000 will stay another year in what is designated as a noncombat role. They will carry weapons to defend themselves and accompany Iraqi troops on missions (but only if asked). Special forces will continue to help Iraqis hunt for terrorists.

So the U.S. death toll — at least 4,415 by Pentagon count as of Wednesday — may not yet be final.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

It started 500 years after Christianity so it'll get there eventually. I've to wonder where Church of Scientology will be 200-500 years from now.

"A cult is a religion without a navy."

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

"A cult is a religion without a navy."

Where's that from?

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This may be the most racist thing I've ever read.

For a harsh dose of reality, you teabaggers might want to read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ot/us_mosque_fact_check

Agree completely. When you start condeming a whole religion for the acts of a few, you really have to look into the motivations of the author. Now not wanting a mosque close to Ground Zero doesn't make you a racist. However, when you start linking it to some unproven plot for Muslims trying to stick it to the US and celebrate 9-11 as part of their global conspiracy to take over the world, you've got problems.

Funny how its always the same posters taking these anti Muslim, anti Hispanic, etc stands. Its almost like they're actively searching for scapegoats or something.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This may be the most racist thing I've ever read.

For a harsh dose of reality, you teabaggers might want to read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ot/us_mosque_fact_check

Ooh, a twofer: I'm a racist AND a teabagger. So much easier than thinking, isn't it, princess? I assume in this competition for the most racist thing you've ever read you're excluding Obama's description of his grandmother (the woman who raised him) as a "typical white person."

I guess it was Baptists who stoned a couple to death a few days ago in Afghanistan. And Cathloics who hang teenage homosexuals in public in Tehran. And Jews who videotape their handiwork when they behead people. And Presbyterian shrinks who murder a dozen helpless young people at an Army base in the name of their "god."

American Muslims are free to worship as they please, but their religion is not exempt from criticism, no matter how much you may wish it to be so, or why.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This is so classic.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEe1nWxGb5s?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEe1nWxGb5s?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This may be the most racist thing I've ever read.

For a harsh dose of reality, you teabaggers might want to read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ot/us_mosque_fact_check

First, where is the racism? Mcarthy makes points many people do no want to believe because they're not reading history.

You probably have not read the quran. read it. it will be an eye opener. That book makes Clockwork Orange look like Bambi.

yes, the Bible has violence but when you compare the two, and then more aptly compare the lives of the two prophets it is really striking. one was non-violent, the other a military general who spent the last 10 years of his life murdering non-believers.

and really. every time someone has an opinion we've got the left saying one of 3 things: RACIST! BUSH! or Homophobic! It's so reactionary and shallow it's tough to even muster the will to take time to respond.

get real. start researching this stuff. Just like the guy who can't believe Cordoba's connotations and literal interpretations...

having said that. that fact check itself contains errors. for instance that site is ON Ground Zero. the reason I can state that with confidence is that several huge chunks of an airplane crashed through that building. landing gear and parts of the fuselage, hence the buildings much lower than expected value.

carry on.

...expecting the charges to come fast and furious about my religious intolerance now

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Ah yes, because nothing screams tolerance like name calling.

Hey, um... is dissent still patriotic, or did that expire last January?

Red Cloud you know the answer to that. Obama doesn't (and totalitarian's/marxists never do) tolerate dissent, nor does he feel it's a right we have. See the articles on his people kicking 3 news reporters out of the press plane during the campaign because their newspapers endorsed Mccain.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

So, I see both you and TBA have reviewed the history of Islamic jurisprudence.

Both of you make the false assumption that the two religions are approximately equal in that religions tend to have similar properties... without finding out why certain religions are the way they are... further you both pre-suppose that there must exist the ability for some "moderate" (liberal) strain of the religion to occur.

You see, the issue is that this is what Islam does... its a military theology. Look at the history of the Quran and Islam... its a warfare doctrine. Without the breaking of the principle of abrogation you won't be able to break the nastier parts of the book.

Can one really say that Jesus Christ is even remotely comparable to Mohammed and Islam even when using this incredibly farcical practice of relativism?

This argument has been way overdone. This isn't a religion compared to religion...this is the religious compared to the religious.

If this was about Christs teaching vs. the Quran...there would be a serious case here. Jesus was about compassion, love and treating your fellow man well regardless of their treatment of you.

The problem is that this is not. As someone who attends church for 3+ hours a week, it is very obvious that many 'Christians' have little to do with Jesus' message. Frankly many are more hostile towards Muslims than one would see on a site like this. Where is the compassion? Its missing from alot of churches. So if 5% of Muslims contemplate an act of terror ...a similar number of Christians would be fine with turning entire middle east countries into parking lots. The key point here is not whether Christians actually turn to violence or not...the key point is that this level of intolerance and hatred means that extremism is the story here and not religion. And 'Christians' turning so completely against one of Jesus' most important tenents 'turn the other cheek' in cases like this is yet another example of extremism in Christianity.

Nope the problem has never been religion.

Stop the press. Goodbye Iraq. Hello Freedom base.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iraq_americans_head_home

Woot! This makes the vote against the GOP worth while.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This may be the most racist thing I've ever read.

For a harsh dose of reality, you teabaggers might want to read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ot/us_mosque_fact_check

_"There should be no mosque near ground zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. ... America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization." — Gingrich.
_"This religion's plan is to destroy our way of life. ... If we have to let them build it, make them build it nine stories underground, so we can walk above it as citizens and Christians." — Ron McNeil, a House GOP candidate in the Florida Panhandle, in an exchange reported by The News Herald in Panama City.

Gingrich and McNeil are going hyperbolic here, and I wouldn't defend these statements with a 10-foot pole.

But how can THIS possibly be considered a "fact check?":

THE FACTS:
Such opinions are shared by some Americans, while others are more reluctant to paint the religion with a broad brush and more welcoming of the faith in this country. Bush himself, while criticized at the time for stirring suspicions about American Muslims, traveled to a Washington mosque less than a week after the attacks to declare that terrorism is "not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace."
In any event, the U.S. armed forces field Muslim troops and make accommodations for them. The Pentagon opened an interfaith chapel in November 2002 close to the area where hijacked American Airlines flight 77 slammed into the building, killing 184 people.
Muslims gather there for a daily prayer service Monday through Thursday and hold a weekly worship service on Fridays, drawing no complaints. Similar but separate services are provided for other faiths.


Somebody just wanted to slap the "Fact Check" label on his own opinion to try fool people into thinking he had a Gotcha.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Where's that from?

I can't find the source. It's one of those quotes that's prehistoric (i.e., before the internets). See also:

"If you can't eat their food, drink their liquor, sleep with their women, and then vote against them, then you don't belong in politics." -- Jesse M. Unruh (often erroneously attributed to Sam Rayburn)

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization." — Gingrich.

Gingrich and McNeil are going hyperbolic here, and I wouldn't defend these statements with a 10-foot pole.

Man...and this is someone who we're thinking will be a role model for our children? There's not always a case for joint problem solving...but cooperation doesn't catch headlines like militancy and this level of militancy as Gingrich is trying to sell himself is scary.

I really welcome conservatisms influence on economic and government efficiency...but guys like this are not just a trojan horse for social conservatism but downright dangerous due the fueling of extremism everywhere.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Guys like Gingrich have painted themselves into a corner with their tactics. On the one hand, he's not an idiot -- if you listen to him speak in academic environments that's clear. OTOH, he and his ilk have watched, applauded, and even abetted the transformation of the commercially-marketed right into lowest common denominator posturing. The intelligent potential leadership on the right has bent over to accommodate demagogues who range from the merely stupid to the actively vile. This has historical parallels and it isn't pretty, and it's always based on hubris: "don't worry, they're just useful idiots we'll use to secure victory, and then we'll be making the decisions." In practice, you can't ride those tigers. They'll bite you (poetic justice) and also go on to do tremendous damage before they're put down.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

get real. start researching this stuff. Just like the guy who can't believe Cordoba's connotations and literal interpretations...

Ok, let's get on that research:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081701473.html

"The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, 'where a piece of the wreckage fell,' said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, 'sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.'

" 'We want to push back against the extremists,' added Imam Feisal, 61."

The reaction? Nada. Later that month, in fact, conservative radio host Laura Ingraham interviewed the imam's wife on "O'Reilly Factor" and said: "I can't find many people who really have a problem with it. . . . I like what you're trying to do."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html

Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America’s leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn’t be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or “zikr”) and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam — accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers — and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.

....

“I feel that it is my duty to protect both the Sufi saints, just as they have protected me,” one woman told me. “Today in our Pakistan there are so many of these mullahs and Wahhabis who say that to pay respect to the saints in their shrines is heresy. Those hypocrites! They sit there reading their law books and arguing about how long their beards should be, and fail to listen to the true message of the prophet.”

There are many like her; indeed, until recently Sufism was the dominant form of Islam in South Asia. And her point of view shows why the West would do well to view Sufis as natural allies against the extremists. A 2007 study by the RAND Corporation found that Sufis’ open, intellectual interpretation of Islam makes them ideal “partners in the effort to combat Islamist extremism.”

Sufism is an entirely indigenous, deeply rooted resistance movement against violent Islamic radicalism. Whether it can be harnessed to a political end is not clear. But the least we can do is to encourage the Sufis in our own societies. Men like Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf should be embraced as vital allies, and we should have only contempt for those who, through ignorance or political calculation, attempt to conflate them with the extremists.

Laura Ingraham and the RAND Corporation. Some real lefties there.

As for this:

having said that. that fact check itself contains errors. for instance that site is ON Ground Zero. the reason I can state that with confidence is that several huge chunks of an airplane crashed through that building. landing gear and parts of the fuselage, hence the buildings much lower than expected value.

I won't defend the veracity of TimP's 'fact check', but if you're claiming that this site is "on" Ground Zero, that makes me think you've never been to Manhattan. And if this site is "on" Ground Zero, then we really need to protect the hallowed Burger King and OTB, or maybe even a gentleman's club.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This article sums it up pretty neatly. Why is it that the people most loudly against the government are the ones cashing the biggest government checks?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38767973

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This article sums it up pretty neatly. Why is it that the people most loudly against the government are the ones cashing the biggest government checks?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38767973

Wow, you must be a mind reader to know what all those people in Alaska are thinking.

/Rover

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

its our right as Americans to criticize the other guy's religion. geez.

my main issue with Islamists is their treatment of women. its between awful and horrendous. the irony of those who embrace liberal ideals also embracing a religion that treats women like dirt. please see the Koran 4:34.