Obama V: For Vendetta

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Settle down Winston, it is going to be ok

Being right is always OK.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I did not say that you were liberal, but I did say that you used the typical liberal tactics of insulting and name calling.

As for what you expected from the GOP, I won't disagree with you there. However, what scares the bejeebers out of most Americans is that what the Dems are pushing (across the board) has pushed this country in a direction from which it may never recover.

As opposed to the direction the GOP put the country in the last years? You are a laugh riot! Keep it up I need more laughs! Nothing the Dems have done has paled in comparison to all of the crap Junior and his cronies did to destroy this country and the people in it!

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Nothing the Dems have done has paled in comparison to all of the crap Junior and his cronies did to destroy this country and the people in it!

Remember how bad deficit spending was when Bush was President? So glad we're out of that national nightmare.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Most of which this bill seeks to address. Also, if you already have employer based insurance (or Medicare) what changes does this bring about except for the very provisions you're advocating in your post, except for tort reform.

About tort reform - didn't Florida pass a law severely restricting amounts lawyers could win in state court for damages/pain & suffering or something like that. I thought the limit was 500K. If it was tougher to win money in court in that state, shouldn't their health care costs be significantly lower than everybody else's? I don't know if they are, but I've never heard that to be the case.

Private insurance competing with a public option isn't a level playing field. Employers will wind up dropping private insurance forcing their employees over to the public option. Private insurance will very likely go away. That's certainly true the way the draft bills were written. We still have to see what a reconciled bill says.

Don't know about Florida, but doctors order more tests than are really needed out of fear of being sued, thus driving up costs. So tort reform is needed whether we just fix our current system or replace it with a new one.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Remember how bad deficit spending was when Bush was President? So glad we're out of that national nightmare.

Hey I am not defending Obama, just bringing the GOP circlejerkers back into the real world. The Demigod of the GOP not only raped the Constitution but he took fiscal conservatism, fed it 5 ruffies and a six pack of Natty Ice! That is why we are stuck with the Dem majority which is sure to bend us over a table for the next 8 years oh joy!

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

You indicate that the current system can be left in place 'a bit longer' with little impact. This is a false statement. People die due to lack of health care each and every day, while the government struggles to act. These are preventable deaths.

Just checked back. I hate to be cheap about this, but I think Lynah addresses your points quite well:

You guys are arguing the wrong question. Of course there are preventable deaths under the current system, and of course there would be preventable deaths under any new system - so that is NOT a valid (nor interesting) standard by which to judge the validity of a system.

Beantown6 - from my perspective my wanting to wait/debate/discuss is not a matter of not wanting to improve the system or not putting us into a system where we are able to prevent 'preventable deaths' - it's a matter of at what cost, at what rate of effectiveness and at what other side affects (what the cons in addition to cost?) to others are we willing to accept in order to implement a system nobody knows anything about?

While the idea of 'socialized' medicare for the country sounds ideal, is this plan in fact the plan that will get us what we want and need? And can it be done without making our children's lives hell because the government has become insolvent?

Never mind you ignored the whole of my point - I'm not saying we should not pass this plan, I'm saying I don't know if we should or not because we don't know enough about it because nobody in Washington seems willing to hash it out and even those that seem to have had their hand in making it don't seem to know exactly how it will work. Does it seem worth it to you to pass this bill immediately, all at the off chance that a number of hypothetical deaths will be prevented, before we even know if it will accomplish even that?

A Beantown6 I will bet you there are a handful of posters here that would swear I'm a liberal through and through, so my points have nothing to do with my 'hating Democrats' or the president, but everything to do with trying to rationalize this topic, get my fingers around it and fully understand it, before I'm willing to honestly aver for or against this proposal.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I deleted my post mocking Red Cloud...it was lame and uncalled for

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Hey I am not defending Obama, just bringing the GOP circlejerkers back into the real world.

They should be shot, not brought into the real world.

 

[Beantown6]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Nobody wants the government to do everything it possibly could to eliminate preventable deaths - nobody. If you think you do, then when's the last time you wrote to your congressman asking him to outlaw cars, cigarettes, and alcohol? Those by far lead to more preventable deaths than the current or any other health care system possibly ever could.

Interestingly besides the point (and yes you did say outlaw, not trying to be snarky here), I did recently write Rep. Markey as well as Sens. Kerry and Kennedy in regards to increased public transit funding for high speed rail to reduce the volume of cars on our roads, request for info on the taxation of cigaretts and a taxing-alcohol issue that will be voted on in my town... amongst many other things. I was angsty that day
(Markey and Kerry responded promptly, while it would be foolish to expect a response from Ted in his current condition.)

But no, nothing about outlawing those things. I see your point. Kinda like the 'why dont we outlaw knives' argument in the 2nd amendment debate.

(hey, i'm actually kind of enjoying the forbidden Cafe!)

 

[Beantown6]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Just checked back. I hate to be cheap about this, but I think Lynah addresses your points quite well:



Beantown6 - from my perspective my wanting to wait/debate/discuss is not a matter of not wanting to improve the system or not putting us into a system where we are able to prevent 'preventable deaths' - it's a matter of at what cost, at what rate of effectiveness and at what other side affects (what the cons in addition to cost?) to others are we willing to accept in order to implement a system nobody knows anything about?

While the idea of 'socialized' medicare for the country sounds ideal, is this plan in fact the plan that will get us what we want and need? And can it be done without making our children's lives hell because the government has become insolvent?

Never mind you ignored the whole of my point - I'm not saying we should not pass this plan, I'm saying I don't know if we should or not because we don't know enough about it because nobody in Washington seems willing to hash it out and even those that seem to have had their hand in making it don't seem to know exactly how it will work. Does it seem worth it to you to pass this bill immediately, all at the off chance that a number of hypothetical deaths will be prevented, before we even know if it will accomplish even that?

A Beantown6 I will bet you there are a handful of posters here that would swear I'm a liberal through and through, so my points have nothing to do with my 'hating Democrats' or the president, but everything to do with trying to rationalize this topic, get my fingers around it and fully understand it, before I'm willing to honestly aver for or against this proposal.

Well said. While I dont agree with some of your opinions, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

I wish I understood many issues more before I spoke about them and definitely wish I understood the healtcare debate in more detail before making loose and sloppy (...pause while you get the giggle out...) accusations on a forum.

But yeah, health care now.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

But yeah, health care now.

The time for discussion is over, isn't it?

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Private insurance competing with a public option isn't a level playing field. Employers will wind up dropping private insurance forcing their employees over to the public option. Private insurance will very likely go away. That's certainly true the way the draft bills were written. We still have to see what a reconciled bill says.

Nowadays, though HMOs are cheaper than, say, PPOs, but PPOs haven't disappeared altogether, because either people are willing to pay a little more to get a little more, or businesses can use better benefits to lure employees. To me it would seem the same with a public plan, that those who want the bare minimum will go for that (as it will be better than the nothing they had before) but those who can afford more and are OK with the cost will go for that. There could be something deep in the plan I'm unaware of; is there?

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

a public option would have to be self sustaining from premiums, and use no taxpayer money to keep it going. Were that written into law, would you still have a problem with it?

Is that in the present bill? Who pays the premiums?

 

[duper]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Don't bother, I'll come and pop all of your bubbles for the sake of my own amusement.

I'm going to break your bubble, and tell you that I appreciate the fact that you have a sense of humor. That's more than I can say for a number of people who post around here. (And I admit, I'm sure that it's more than most people think of me )

I also consider it highly amusing that you consider yourself to have "schooled" me. despite having refuted my comments in no real way, and having made no real points yourself. You have done an excellent job at demonstrating the fine art of pointless blustering. (And believe me, I know my pointless blustering.)

And in response to Bill, I think the fact that everyone agrees that something needs to be done is why the issue is worth debating. I also agree that tort reform would be worthwhile, if only for the unseen side effects. A friend who worked his way through law school clerking for a Med Mal litigator (who apparently is well enough respected both locally and nationally that he can pretty much afford to take only cases where clearly (to his way of thinking) a doctor screwed up, i.e. not an ambulance-chaser) said that in the end, the facts in a med mal case seem to have no bearing on the outcome; if the jury thinks people are too litigious and doctors are infallible, the doctor will be found not responsible and if the jury mistrusts doctors and thinks they make too much money and screw people over, the doctor will be found responsible. Hopefully, decreasing the number of med mal cases might make juries actually listen to and consider the facts of the case. (Obviously, this is a generalization, but one based on a person who was present for numerous high-profile med mal suits.)

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Is that in the present bill? Who pays the premiums?

A public option isn't expected out of the Senate bill. It is in the House bills. The President stated he only wanted a self sustaining public option.

Who pays the premiums is the people who use the insurance. so when you're shopping around, its one of several options you can choose.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

So a public option will have cheap premiums? Not sure I see how folks on welfare or minimum wage jobs could afford to pay. If they're the only ones on the public option not sure I see how its self sustaining?

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

lookit... i'd like everyone to be covered. but cover everyone equally.

if we have national hc -- i want what everyone else has and i want to pay what everyone else does. (basically, zero )

and we ain't going to see peeps that don't have it now all of a sudden stop clogging up ER's.... so that 'savings' ain't coming too soon. are we going to lock them out? no.

dump insurance companies now. if the guv'ment is running it, they are wasted middle mgmt... extra layer of cost/waste.

do for us (me) what congresspersons and BHO get. same w/h, same co-pays, same scripts. same same.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Nowadays, though HMOs are cheaper than, say, PPOs, but PPOs haven't disappeared altogether, because either people are willing to pay a little more to get a little more, or businesses can use better benefits to lure employees. To me it would seem the same with a public plan, that those who want the bare minimum will go for that (as it will be better than the nothing they had before) but those who can afford more and are OK with the cost will go for that. There could be something deep in the plan I'm unaware of; is there?

There are things in the current draft bills that would sooner or later force people over to the public option (e.g. changes to their policy). But principally the public option wouldn't have to operate at a profit and would be backed by the Gov't which can print all the money it wants to in support of the program. Private insurance companies wouldn't be able to compete with that for long. We really need to see what the reconciled bill will look like, but even if it is written to make a public option self sustaining, does anyone really believe the Gov't could manage it that well given it's history of managing large scale entitlement programs? And to even come close to making it a level playing field, just making the program minimally self-sustaining wouldn't be enough. Private companies need to have a healthy profit margin or they will eventually fold. There would need to be an requirement in the bill for a public option to make some type of average private sector profit margin or else the Gov't would still have a clear advantage. If a final bill is passed with a public option, I believe the days of private health insurance in this country are numbered.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I don't understand why everyone isn't giving these Death Panels a shot. Ration care of the elderly. The faster they die, the more we save. The answer is to flip flop Medicare. Instead of Medicare starting at 65 it should end at 65.

Problem solved. Buckets loads of money saved.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I don't understand why everyone isn't giving these Death Panels a shot. Ration care of the elderly. The faster they die, the more we save. The answer is to flip flop Medicare. Instead of Medicare starting at 65 it should end at 65.

Problem solved. Buckets loads of money saved.

to quote former BU pres John Silber when he was running for gov of MA... "when you're old and you're ripe, it's time to die" when talking about how we spend the majority of our hc $ on the first year and last year of life.