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Favorite US Military General?

Re: Favorite US Military General?

I've given it some thought and if you made me pick an American general I'd have to go with MacArthur, the depth and breadth of his accomplishments and career is astonishing. Three times recommended for the Medal of Honor (awarded once), awarded the Distinguished Service Cross three times, 2 Purple Hearts and 7 Silver Stars in WWI! Valedictorian of his class at West Point. Commandant of West Point. General of the Army. Field Marshall in the Army of the Philippines. Recaptured the Philippines. Commanded our efforts which ultimately crushed Japan's empire. Accepted Japan's surrender on the Missouri. Transitioned Japan from feudal militarism to democracy with enlightened administration. Masterminded the Inchon landings.

Any one of those major accomplishments would be enough to justify consideration as America's greatest. But all of them? Manchester had it right: American Caesar.

MacArthur at West Point in 1962:

"The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished, tone and tint. They have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen vainly, but with thirsty ears, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory, always I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes: Duty, Honor, Country. Today marks my final roll call with you, but I want you to know that when I cross the river my last conscious thoughts will be of The Corps, and The Corps, and The Corps. I bid you farewell."
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

Hannibal was only forced to leave Italy because Scipio thought up a way to get him out, and then another way to defeat him on his home territory.
Had Hannibal won, the likelihood was that North African mores and the north african way of life would have dominated world society going forward. In other words, Christianity becomes an afterthought.
Scipio was also in the position to do so because of his success in Spain. But yes it was a really long time ago. I figured he merited inclusion because of the implications going forward.

Another relatively unknown guy who is worth a look is Lord Dowdy of England during WWII. He did a tremendous amount with very limited assets.
As far as De Gaulle. There is a huge painting in the Louvre of Bonaparte Coronating himself. Nuff said.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Any one of those major accomplishments would be enough to justify consideration as America's greatest. But all of them? Manchester had it right: American Caesar.

That's exactly the right name for MacArthur and similar war-minded generals (specifically LeMay, though Andrew Jackson also comes to mind.) Excellent general... well, most of the time... but never quite sure how far he'll go.

On the other hand, I agree with Almington's assessment of Washington. He wasn't a great tactical officer, but was a born leader, a man with a profound sense of the practical, and self-limiting.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Hannibal was only forced to leave Italy because Scipio thought up a way to get him out, and then another way to defeat him on his home territory.
Had Hannibal won, the likelihood was that North African mores and the north african way of life would have dominated world society going forward. In other words, Christianity becomes an afterthought.
Scipio was also in the position to do so because of his success in Spain. But yes it was a really long time ago. I figured he merited inclusion because of the implications going forward.

I agree that Scipio is worthy of discussion about great captains, but think you strongly overestimate the situation at the time. At the time of Hannibal's recall to Carthage nearly 15 years had past since his victory at Cannae. He simply was unable to win the war, battles yes, but not the war. He had even threatened to besiege Rome only to have the Romans close the gates and prepare for the siege. Additionally Fabian tactics were gaining acceptance. To paraphrase one of his officers, Hannibal won but he didn't know what to do then. Even without Scipio, the 2nd Punic War likely ends in a Roman victory, it simply takes time, Rome simply had too many resources and Hannibal had no ability to actual launch a siege. I think that implying that the battle of Zama impacts the spread of two religions that hadn't even been conceived yet is a stretch. Especially since I'm far from convinced that Rome was in danger of losing the war.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I agree that Scipio is worthy of discussion about great captains, but think you strongly overestimate the situation at the time. At the time of Hannibal's recall to Carthage nearly 15 years had past since his victory at Cannae. He simply was unable to win the war, battles yes, but not the war. He had even threatened to besiege Rome only to have the Romans close the gates and prepare for the siege. Additionally Fabian tactics were gaining acceptance. To paraphrase one of his officers, Hannibal won but he didn't know what to do then. Even without Scipio, the 2nd Punic War likely ends in a Roman victory, it simply takes time, Rome simply had too many resources and Hannibal had no ability to actual launch a siege. I think that implying that the battle of Zama impacts the spread of two religions that hadn't even been conceived yet is a stretch. Especially since I'm far from convinced that Rome was in danger of losing the war.
All good points, but..assume Hannibal wins and returns to Italy. It's hard for me to imagine him or his successors winning all the battles but eventually losing and how does Rome rise to the heights of world domination that it did with some other guy running up and down the country tearing up. Having said that I forgot completely about the siege issues.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

George C. Marshall.

Not only did he do a masterful job in managing all of the other generals during WW II, he also had a phenomenal subsequent stint as a statesman helping rebuild post-WWII Europe. The Marshall Plan helped cement a strong half-century alliance.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

All good points, but..assume Hannibal wins and returns to Italy. It's hard for me to imagine him or his successors winning all the battles but eventually losing and how does Rome rise to the heights of world domination that it did with some other guy running up and down the country tearing up. Having said that I forgot completely about the siege issues.

Hannibal didn't seem too interested in converting a majority or strong minority of Romans to his viewpoint, so he would still be in the position of being an invader rather than a liberator. The French were in the same position in Russia in the 1800s, and to some extent so has every army invading Great Russia from the west. He had to bring all his supplies across the Mediterranean, live off the land (which the Romans countered, to some extent), or rely on subsidiary forces from other areas.

Unlike most invaders into Russia though, Rome was able to isolate him and attack at his own homeland by sea. Hannibal had to go home or risk losing Carthage's support or even the city-state itself.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I've given it some thought and if you made me pick an American general I'd have to go with MacArthur, the depth and breadth of his accomplishments and career is astonishing. Three times recommended for the Medal of Honor (awarded once), awarded the Distinguished Service Cross three times, 2 Purple Hearts and 7 Silver Stars in WWI! Valedictorian of his class at West Point. Commandant of West Point. General of the Army. Field Marshall in the Army of the Philippines. Recaptured the Philippines. Commanded our efforts which ultimately crushed Japan's empire. Accepted Japan's surrender on the Missouri. Transitioned Japan from feudal militarism to democracy with enlightened administration. Masterminded the Inchon landings.

Any one of those major accomplishments would be enough to justify consideration as America's greatest. But all of them? Manchester had it right: American Caesar.

MacArthur at West Point in 1962:

"The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished, tone and tint. They have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen vainly, but with thirsty ears, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange, mournful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory, always I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes: Duty, Honor, Country. Today marks my final roll call with you, but I want you to know that when I cross the river my last conscious thoughts will be of The Corps, and The Corps, and The Corps. I bid you farewell."

I think his brilliance is often over-looked by those that never studied him closely due to his supposed 'bombastic' characteristics, as if that should even be a sin for someone in his position.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I think his brilliance is often over-looked by those that never studied him closely due to his supposed 'bombastic' characteristics, as if that should even be a sin for someone in his position.

The record, as they say, speaks for itself. 7 Silver Stars? Are you sh*ttin' me? The Japanese called him "The Gaijin Shogun." By any objective criterion, he was el numero uno.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

My dad is a big Revolutionary war buff and I called him about the best general of the revolution. He said Johnny Stark, then Morgan and then Greene.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

The record, as they say, speaks for itself. 7 Silver Stars? Are you sh*ttin' me? The Japanese called him "The Gaijin Shogun." By any objective criterion, he was el numero uno.

Here is what the soldiers in the field thought about General MacArthur
Dugout Doug MacArthur lies ashakin on the Rock
Safe from all the bombers and any sudden shock
Dugout Doug is eating the best food on Bataan
And his troops go starving on
From www.pacificwar.org
Did you know that Gen. MacArthur was busy buying stock in a Philippines mining co. on 12/28/41 that made him a millionaire by the end of the war? That he and his sycophant staff demanded money from the Philippine Treasury ,MacArthur garnering 500,000.00 for himself or that MacArthur only visited the troops once during the entire siege.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Here is what the soldiers in the field thought about General MacArthur
Dugout Doug MacArthur lies ashakin on the Rock
Safe from all the bombers and any sudden shock
Dugout Doug is eating the best food on Bataan
And his troops go starving on
From www.pacificwar.org
Did you know that Gen. MacArthur was busy buying stock in a Philippines mining co. on 12/28/41 that made him a millionaire by the end of the war? That he and his sycophant staff demanded money from the Philippine Treasury ,MacArthur garnering 500,000.00 for himself or that MacArthur only visited the troops once during the entire siege.

So what? I can tell you from personal experience that GI's b*tch, all the time, about everything. And if you want to treat unsourced, annecdotal b*tching as gospel, knock yourself out. But that does not diminish his half century of accomplishments one iota. As to those financial matters, I suspect there's another side of the story that you're not giving us.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

I'm a fan of MacArthur but two things stand out to me that keep me from calling him the Best American General since 1861. The first is the he never, to me, ever did anything that stands out as innovative or unique like, for instance Sherman. Secondly, he made an absolute hash out of the Korean situation with regards to China. However he did give rise to one of my favorite US diplomatic history quotes; "One fifth of the world's population cannot simply be wrong." Anyway he decision to pressure the Yalu and the resulting intervention of China means he cannot be the superlative general of the last 150 years.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I'm a fan of MacArthur but two things stand out to me that keep me from calling him the Best American General since 1861. The first is the he never, to me, ever did anything that stands out as innovative or unique like, for instance Sherman. Secondly, he made an absolute hash out of the Korean situation with regards to China. However he did give rise to one of my favorite US diplomatic history quotes; "One fifth of the world's population cannot simply be wrong." Anyway he decision to pressure the Yalu and the resulting intervention of China means he cannot be the superlative general of the last 150 years.
His (in)actions on 12/8/1941 should have gotten him court martialed.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Knew I'd find Old Pio here and his selection of MacArthur is not at all surprising.

Personally I prefer George C. Scott as Patton:)
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

His (in)actions on 12/8/1941 should have gotten him court martialed.

Pretty much an expert on the UCMJ, are you? All great men (heck, all men) make mistakes. And all great men have enemies. MacArthur's enemies are particularly enthusiastic, but they cannot diminish his accomplishments. Perfect? Certainly not. But we're not talking about a Pope here, we're talking about a general. And his accomplishments are without equal in our history. Lee, whom many adore, represents the triumph of style over substance. When facing implacable enemies, give me substance any day.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

I'm a fan of MacArthur but two things stand out to me that keep me from calling him the Best American General since 1861. The first is the he never, to me, ever did anything that stands out as innovative or unique like, for instance Sherman. Secondly, he made an absolute hash out of the Korean situation with regards to China. However he did give rise to one of my favorite US diplomatic history quotes; "One fifth of the world's population cannot simply be wrong." Anyway he decision to pressure the Yalu and the resulting intervention of China means he cannot be the superlative general of the last 150 years.

If you're a "fan" of MacArthur's, why did you leave out Inchon? It was thought to be impossible, but turned out to be our biggest success of that particular "police action."
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

His (in)actions on 12/8/1941 should have gotten him court martialed.

Would you care to elaborate?

I put Lee and MacArthur in the same category: Very charismatic and inspiring leaders but they didn't have the outstanding strategic or tactical vision that the truly great generals have had.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I put Lee and MacArthur in the same category: Very charismatic and inspiring leaders but they didn't have the outstanding strategic or tactical vision that the truly great generals have had.

Or the results! I have to put George C. Marshall as # 1, with several people tied for # 2 - # 5 like Grant, Eisenhower, Sherman, Petraeus.
 
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