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Favorite US Military General?

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Knew I'd find Old Pio here and his selection of MacArthur is not at all surprising.

Personally I prefer George C. Scott as Patton:)

What was it the reporter said in "Man Who Shot Liberty Valance?" "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

If you're a "fan" of MacArthur's, why did you leave out Inchon? It was thought to be impossible, but turned out to be our biggest success of that particular "police action."

Because we are talking about successful generals. Does one need to highlight Blenheim for Malborough or Austerlitz for Napoleon or Cannae for Hannibal? If he didn't have great successes then why would he be in the discussion. Additionally, I think it was you, said by any objective criterion he was el numero uno. Well I pointed out two specific reasons I have for not having him as #1. He did not do anything innovative or unique, like being the first to apply total war tactics (Sherman) and he committed a major military-political error by not only failing to defeat an enemy but gaining a strong and more dangerous foe, especially when there was no reason too. Imagine Grant deciding that English help to the CSA with regards to ship building and then deciding that to prevent that he should send Farraguet to launch a full blockade of Britain which resulted in the the entrance of GB into the war. Certainly that would tarnish he reputation, no?

And yes, Inchon was a spectacular victory that was unexpected and decisive. And if he had stopped at Pyongyang or the 38th then the war is won then and there.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Because we are talking about successful generals. Does one need to highlight Blenheim for Malborough or Austerlitz for Napoleon or Cannae for Hannibal? If he didn't have great successes then why would he be in the discussion. Additionally, I think it was you, said by any objective criterion he was el numero uno. Well I pointed out two specific reasons I have for not having him as #1. He did not do anything innovative or unique, like being the first to apply total war tactics (Sherman) and he committed a major military-political error by not only failing to defeat an enemy but gaining a strong and more dangerous foe, especially when there was no reason too. Imagine Grant deciding that English help to the CSA with regards to ship building and then deciding that to prevent that he should send Farraguet to launch a full blockade of Britain which resulted in the the entrance of GB into the war. Certainly that would tarnish he reputation, no?

And yes, Inchon was a spectacular victory that was unexpected and decisive. And if he had stopped at Pyongyang or the 38th then the war is won then and there.
Don't forget OP he did do enough wrong that Truman sacked him. Having said that, certainly he did a lot right. I love the discussion because not a lot of people I know are military history fans. I had never heard of Johnny Stark until this morning for instance.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Because we are talking about successful generals. Does one need to highlight Blenheim for Malborough or Austerlitz for Napoleon or Cannae for Hannibal? If he didn't have great successes then why would he be in the discussion. Additionally, I think it was you, said by any objective criterion he was el numero uno. Well I pointed out two specific reasons I have for not having him as #1. He did not do anything innovative or unique, like being the first to apply total war tactics (Sherman) and he committed a major military-political error by not only failing to defeat an enemy but gaining a strong and more dangerous foe, especially when there was no reason too. Imagine Grant deciding that English help to the CSA with regards to ship building and then deciding that to prevent that he should send Farraguet to launch a full blockade of Britain which resulted in the the entrance of GB into the war. Certainly that would tarnish he reputation, no?

And yes, Inchon was a spectacular victory that was unexpected and decisive. And if he had stopped at Pyongyang or the 38th then the war is won then and there.

It just struck me as interesting that as a self-described "fan" of the general, you only listed alleged short comings. And I say it again, by any objective criterion, he was "el numero uno." Division commander, Army commander and Shogun. Nobody has that resume. Oh, and pompous pain in the a*s too, but is that really relevant to this discussion? We'll just have to disagree on the rankings. :)
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

Don't forget OP he did do enough wrong that Truman sacked him. Having said that, certainly he did a lot right. I love the discussion because not a lot of people I know are military history fans. I had never heard of Johnny Stark until this morning for instance.

I was thinking the same thing. Dubbie starts a thread about our favorite American general, next thing you know we're talking about Scipio and Hannibal. It's been eye opening to me how many of us know so much about military history. Also, IIRC, none of us have mentioned Rommel, Guderian, von Manteuffel, von Manstein, etc. Yeah, I know what the thread is called, but Scipio and Hannibal and the rest aren't Americans either.

What was it George C. Scott said: "Rommel, you magnificent bast*rd, I read your BOOK!"
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

OK, I guess we'll disagree on what it takes to be El Numero Uno. A title doesn't get it done for me, especially when the one no one else can claim is not a true title or position, simply a nickname. Were title to be the determiner then Attila "Scourge of God, Grandson of Nimrod, nurtured in Engedi, by the grace of God, King of the Huns, Goths, Danes, and Medes, the terror of the world" would win.

As for John Stark, he commanded the rail fence at Bunker/Breed's Hill and inflicted tremendous casualties on the flanking British Light Infantry before winning his true fame for winning the Battle of Bennington in (modern day) Vermont. Saying before the battle, "They are ours or this night Molly Stark sleeps a widow!" One of the best rallying cries in early America.

If you want rankings here are my top 5 Army Commanders (if must include the Navy I'll need more time, the same for American only) in order:

1) Bonaparte
2) Marlborough
3) Von Moltke (the Elder)
4) Sherman
5) Guderian
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

I guess I was thinking we were supposed to name our "Favorite US Military General" ... not the best. my pick was Custer, that was for favorite, not best, hmmm, I'll have to think about that ... Sherman, MacArthur, Marshall, Washington, Eisenhower ...
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

I listed my favorite too! Sheridan. How can't you like a guy who said "If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas."

But if you're going to answer the question, you also need to pick from 1861 onward, I think that was stipulated in the OP.
Edit:
OK, I've had some time to think on it, in no particular order my Top 5 Best American Generals since 1861:
Sherman
Grant
Schwarzkopf
Holland Smith
Eisenhower
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

Nobody's mentioned Light Horse Harry Lee, so I thought I would.

And even though he wasn't a general, history says Ethan Allen got off a great line when he took Fort Ticonderoga "in the name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress." An important engagement, because it cut off Britain's supply of pencils.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

I guess I was thinking we were supposed to name our "Favorite US Military General" ... not the best.

Good point. I suppose I could say my favorite was General Quarters....

can we say our favorite portrayal of a general? for me it would be a tie from the movie Patton between George C Scott as the titular subject and Karl Malden as [correction: Omar Bradley, thx priceless] in the same movie.

In real life it would be a three-way tie between Marshall, Eisenhower, and Petraeus. No matter what your position initially on how we became engaged in Iraq a second time, once we were there, it was much better to win than to lose, and it was a brand-new kind of war for us. For us to turn things around the way he did was truly extraordinary and remarkable. My bet is that future military historians will find it a great case history.



PS I did not realize there were so many Harvard graduates on this thread, I've heard stories about the history of navigation course before but I never expected to see several different people posting material that sounds like it was taken directly from that course here!
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

can we say our favorite portrayal of a general? for me it would be a tie from the movie Patton between George C Scott as the titular subject and Karl Malden as Marshall in the same movie.
Omar Bradley
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

An important engagement, because it cut off Britain's supply of pencils.

:D

Ok, ok. If we're going on ACCOMPLISHMENTS past 1861 (I've already nominated Winfield Scott for all-time great US general)...

For sheer balls' sake, and for being the only US general on the beach on D-Day, I'll give Ted Roosevelt, Jr. the nod. Would have been interesting to see his career further into the war, had he not had a heart attack in early July, 1944.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

:D

Ok, ok. If we're going on ACCOMPLISHMENTS past 1861 (I've already nominated Winfield Scott for all-time great US general)...

For sheer balls' sake, and for being the only US general on the beach on D-Day, I'll give Ted Roosevelt, Jr. the nod. Would have been interesting to see his career further into the war, had he not had a heart attack in early July, 1944.

I just flashed on Henry Fonda hobbling down the passageway with his cane.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Pretty much an expert on the UCMJ, are you? All great men (heck, all men) make mistakes. And all great men have enemies. MacArthur's enemies are particularly enthusiastic, but they cannot diminish his accomplishments. Perfect? Certainly not. But we're not talking about a Pope here, we're talking about a general. And his accomplishments are without equal in our history. Lee, whom many adore, represents the triumph of style over substance. When facing implacable enemies, give me substance any day.
MacArthur lacked substance Dec 8, 1941. Kimmel and Short were both court martialed (both later exhonerated), while Mac was just as derilict, if not more so, but kept his command and promoted later on. Compare the ignominious post-1941 fates of Kimmel and Short, and the celebrated post-1941 career of Douglas MacArthur. Although Washington provided MacArthur with warnings of a possible Japanese attack that were at least as clear as those given the commanders in Hawaii, he was no better prepared for a Japanese assault. MacArthur's forces were devastated by Japanese raids much as those under the command of Kimmel and Short. But instead of ignominy and early forced retirement, MacArthur -- in contrast to Kimmel and Short -- was promoted, and went on to an acclaimed wartime career that secured a legendary place in history.
The surrender of US forces in the Phillipines were the worst in US history. Even after learning of Pearl Harbor, he was caught with his planes on the ground. He had time to send his B-17's to Formosa to bomb the airfields the eventual attackers would leave from, but he never pulled the trigger. Instead, HIS bombers were destroyed on the ground, and not a single jap was intercepted by his P-40's.
Along with the 20,000+ that surrendered on Corrigidor, consider the thousands that died retaking the Phillipine Is.
Obviously, once Pearl Harbor happened, MacArthur and the Army there were s.o.l. and not going to stop the Japanese. But with air cover, lost on Dec. 8, they could have held out much longer. Maybe long enough to get resupplied. Regardless, that was his job!!

On a different tangent, Eisenhower and MacArthur both achieved great victories in WWII, but Nimitz achieved his while facing superior forces. Even after Midway the US navy was outnumbered and outgunned. Of all the generals considered here, how many gained their great victories while facing superior forces?
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

MacArthur lacked substance Dec 8, 1941. Kimmel and Short were both court martialed (both later exhonerated), while Mac was just as derilict, if not more so, but kept his command and promoted later on. Compare the ignominious post-1941 fates of Kimmel and Short, and the celebrated post-1941 career of Douglas MacArthur. Although Washington provided MacArthur with warnings of a possible Japanese attack that were at least as clear as those given the commanders in Hawaii, he was no better prepared for a Japanese assault. MacArthur's forces were devastated by Japanese raids much as those under the command of Kimmel and Short. But instead of ignominy and early forced retirement, MacArthur -- in contrast to Kimmel and Short -- was promoted, and went on to an acclaimed wartime career that secured a legendary place in history.
The surrender of US forces in the Phillipines were the worst in US history. Even after learning of Pearl Harbor, he was caught with his planes on the ground. He had time to send his B-17's to Formosa to bomb the airfields the eventual attackers would leave from, but he never pulled the trigger. Instead, HIS bombers were destroyed on the ground, and not a single jap was intercepted by his P-40's.
Along with the 20,000+ that surrendered on Corrigidor, consider the thousands that died retaking the Phillipine Is.
Obviously, once Pearl Harbor happened, MacArthur and the Army there were s.o.l. and not going to stop the Japanese. But with air cover, lost on Dec. 8, they could have held out much longer. Maybe long enough to get resupplied. Regardless, that was his job!!

On a different tangent, Eisenhower and MacArthur both achieved great victories in WWII, but Nimitz achieved his while facing superior forces. Even after Midway the US navy was outnumbered and outgunned. Of all the generals considered here, how many gained their great victories while facing superior forces?

So your point is since we made scapegoats of Kimmel and Short, we should have done the same to MacArthur? Seriously? My view is that Kimmel and Short shouldn't have been court-martialed. As I've said, MacArthur's enemies were and remain very enthusiastic. And you seem very enthusiastic to parrot their line about what he could and should have done. Obviously, not everyone agreed with your analysis, including Marshall and Roosevelt. And your hindsight, as is customary, is 20/20. We also made a scapegoat of Capt. McVeigh of the Indianapolis, which IIRC, has only recently been rectified.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

OK, I guess we'll disagree on what it takes to be El Numero Uno. A title doesn't get it done for me, especially when the one no one else can claim is not a true title or position, simply a nickname. Were title to be the determiner then Attila "Scourge of God, Grandson of Nimrod, nurtured in Engedi, by the grace of God, King of the Huns, Goths, Danes, and Medes, the terror of the world" would win.

As for John Stark, he commanded the rail fence at Bunker/Breed's Hill and inflicted tremendous casualties on the flanking British Light Infantry before winning his true fame for winning the Battle of Bennington in (modern day) Vermont. Saying before the battle, "They are ours or this night Molly Stark sleeps a widow!" One of the best rallying cries in early America.

If you want rankings here are my top 5 Army Commanders (if must include the Navy I'll need more time, the same for American only) in order:

1) Bonaparte
2) Marlborough
3) Von Moltke (the Elder)
4) Sherman
5) Guderian
Another thing or two about John Stark, his work in Bennington had a lot to do with the defeat of Burgoyne which had a big impact on the war.Though he never really got proper credit. He also coined what is now the state motto of New Hampshire, " Live Free or Die".
I like the Patton portrayal and personally Nimitz was quite good as was Lemay. I'm a lot more of an air guy than a ground guy though.
As to what makes a great General, 1. Tactical genius and 2. political genius. And you didn't mention Julius Ceaser and his Veni, Vidi, Vici.Great general too.
Oh and a while back I managed to snare swartzkopf's parking place sign.
 
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Re: Favorite US Military General?

Another thing or two about John Stark, his work in Bennington had a lot to do with the defeat of Burgoyne which had a big impact on the war.Though he never really got proper credit. He also coined what is now the state motto of New Hampshire, " Live Free or Die".
I like the Patton portrayal and personally Nimitz was quite good as was Lemay. I'm a lot more of an air guy than a ground guy though.
As to what makes a great General, 1. Tactical genius and 2. political genius. And you didn't mention Julius Ceaser and his Veni, Vidi, Vici.Great general too.
Oh and a while back I managed to snare swartzkopf's parking place sign.

Yes, yes, Bennington was a crucial forerunner of Saratoga. Frankly, I rate Patton ahead of MacArthur and for an "air guy" you should also consider Billy Mitchell. Turning to Admirals is an completely different thread.

As for Caesar, also one of History's great captains. I generally look to the advent of "modern" war when I look at such things, as you likely can tell from my "rankings." In addition to Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus must warrants a mention along with Genghis, Hannibal, Alexander, possibly Marius, and Scipio.

When looking at what makes a great general I look at a number of things. 1) Obviously success 2) Understand and use of tactics and strategy 3) Innovation and ability to adapt (including the ability to respond when pushed or defeated.
 
Re: Favorite US Military General?

Since this thread morphed a little more into all generals from strictly American Generals to others I find it interesting some who haven't been mentioned though my preference tends to be pre-mechanized warfare and a lot mentioned have been WWII Generals.


Gengis Khan ruled the largest empire in the world was never decisively defeated and some of his innovative tactics, particularly total warfare by eliminating the population of whole cities, which made taking other cities easier once his reputation spread.

Alexander the Great able to adapt to all situation from battles, Gaugemela and Issus to siege warfare like Tyre conquered the known world and was never defeated.

Julius Caesar the conqueror of Gaul and Pompey

Gustuvas Adolphus followed Charles IX's lead and continued to expand the Swedish army his creation of an army organized into units, as opposed to normal European armies of the time which were disorganized conscripts. His integration of cavalry infantry and particularly mobile artillery made the Swedish army the model that was followed until the 20th century. He was basically called "The Father of Modern Warfare" and was the idol of Napoleon.

Tammerlane he was more along the lines of Attila and looking mainly for loot and plunder but a brilliant commander.

Saladin Retook the Holy Land and Jerusalem and established a line of castles and other defensive fortifications which basically made it impossible for the Christians to threaten it for centuries.

Cyrus the Great founded the Persian Empire by combining 3 kingdoms

The Duke of Marlborough has been mentioned but his co-commander the Austrian Field Marshall Eugene of Savoy has not.

I guess they wouldn't technically be called Generals but both Pizzaro and Cortes conquered large civilizations with only a small amount of men.
 
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