Favorite US Military General?

[Titleist]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

In addition to Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus must warrants a mention along with Genghis, Hannibal, Alexander, possibly Marius, and Scipio.

Gengis Khan

Alexander the Great

Julius Caesar

Gustuvas Adolphus

Tammerlane

Saladin

Cyrus the Great

The Duke of Marlborough has been mentioned but his co-commander the Austrian Field Marshall Eugene of Savoy has not.

I just nipped you under the wire on a couple of those! If Saladin is to be mentioned then Richard III as well? And I suppose Henry V with the Longbows and all. As for Eugene, I'm torn. I've been reading a lot about the early modern period lately, just finished the Wars of Louis XIV by Lynn tonight, and for all his reputation and achievements, he seemed to lose a lot of battles. Even basically declaring to the Emperor at the end of the War of Spanish Succession, that Villars had a clear military superiority. The same goes for another personal favorite with a massive reputation, Frederick II. I love his mentality and such but he seems to lose as often as he wins and came within the surprise death of Elizabeth to having Prussia destroyed, something so surprising that it is know as the Miracle of the House of Brandenburg.

Still all good additions. Especially Tammerlane.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

So your point is since we made scapegoats of Kimmel and Short, we should have done the same to MacArthur? Seriously? My view is that Kimmel and Short shouldn't have been court-martialed. As I've said, MacArthur's enemies were and remain very enthusiastic. And you seem very enthusiastic to parrot their line about what he could and should have done. Obviously, not everyone agreed with your analysis, including Marshall and Roosevelt. And your hindsight, as is customary, is 20/20. We also made a scapegoat of Capt. McVeigh of the Indianapolis, which IIRC, has only recently been rectified.

Perhaps my point was that since MacArthur wasn't punished for his inaction at the start of the war , neither should Kimmel or Short. But given our 20/20 hind site, why do you think Kimmel and Short should not have been court-martialed?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Perhaps my point was that since MacArthur wasn't punished for his inaction at the start of the war , neither should Kimmel or Short. But given our 20/20 hind site, why do you think Kimmel and Short should not have been court-martialed?

Oh come on, this isn't a Socratic dialogue. You know the answer perfectly well. What happened to Kimmel and Short was a miscarriage of justice. Doing the same thing to MacArthur would have been consistent, but wrong. You've concluded MacArthur isn't a great general because of the opening days of the Pacific war. I prefer to look at his entire career, which is without parallel in our military history.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

I prefer to look at his entire career, which is without parallel in our military history.

I know I said I was done with this but, just can't let it go. You've been extremely vocal in your support for MacArthur throughout the thread, but outside of Inchon, you've offered little to support your position. So I ask you, why do you endorse him so much? I suppose I mean this in a positive way, convince me.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

I've concluded nothing of the sort. I said he had an 'acclaimed' career and was a historical legend. I'm saying he wasn't a great general on Dec. 8, 1941. Just like Kimmel and Short weren't great on Dec 7. I do think Kimmel and Short were largely at fault, enough to at least be relieved of their commands, for Dec. 7. Kimmel said himself that the best place for the fleet to be if attacked was at sea, and he was right. But every Battleship in the Pacific was at its moorings that day. There was plenty of blame to go around, but I think you have to start at the base commanders.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Honestly, MacArthur reminds me a lot of Winfield Scott. They both influenced the army more than any of their peers, they both had a ridiculously long career, they both amassed a huge amount of power, and both of them ended their careers with a tarnished reputation. I don't have a problem with Old Pio's choice, he was a hell of a general - he's just not my choice.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

I know I said I was done with this but, just can't let it go. You've been extremely vocal in your support for MacArthur throughout the thread, but outside of Inchon, you've offered little to support your position. So I ask you, why do you endorse him so much? I suppose I mean this in a positive way, convince me.

No thanks. Just reread my posts. Disagree if you like, but I'm past being handed homework assignments.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

I've concluded nothing of the sort. I said he had an 'acclaimed' career and was a historical legend. I'm saying he wasn't a great general on Dec. 8, 1941. Just like Kimmel and Short weren't great on Dec 7. I do think Kimmel and Short were largely at fault, enough to at least be relieved of their commands, for Dec. 7. Kimmel said himself that the best place for the fleet to be if attacked was at sea, and he was right. But every Battleship in the Pacific was at its moorings that day. There was plenty of blame to go around, but I think you have to start at the base commanders.

Well, that's not unreasonable. One bad day (by your analysis) and a 50 year career goes out the window. As I have said, MacArthur generated lots of hatred by lots of very small people, and it continues to this day. You and I are both entitled to our opinions. So please stop trying to argue me out of mine and I'll do the same with you. And the phrase "acclaimed career" strikes me as Clintonian, coming as it does neatly wedged in your long exegesis about MacArthur's shortcomings. And you seem to think that "acclaimed career" only occurred because the Army failed to court martial him, which you think it should have. Pardon me for not taking that "praise" seriously.

 

[Almington]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

No thanks. Just reread my posts. Disagree if you like, but I'm past being handed homework assignments.

Par for the course with you, when actually challenged to support your statements you refuse.

I've given it some thought and if you made me pick an American general I'd have to go with MacArthur, the depth and breadth of his accomplishments and career is astonishing. Three times recommended for the Medal of Honor (awarded once), awarded the Distinguished Service Cross three times, 2 Purple Hearts and 7 Silver Stars in WWI! Valedictorian of his class at West Point. Commandant of West Point. General of the Army. Field Marshall in the Army of the Philippines. Recaptured the Philippines. Commanded our efforts which ultimately crushed Japan's empire. Accepted Japan's surrender on the Missouri. Transitioned Japan from feudal militarism to democracy with enlightened administration. Masterminded the Inchon landings."

But you have to balance that against how badly he bungled the China situation in Korea and his defeat by the Japanese in the Philippines during the opening days of WW2. I would go as far to say that the US Navy was far more responsible for victory in the Pacific than anything that MacArthur did and that victory would have happened with or without his involvement. If that something that can be said of Washington, Grant, or Sheman - that the US would have won without their involvement?

The landings at Inchon saved the US in Korea and had he not gotten the Chinese involved, I'd be much more willing to move him up my rankings.

MacArthur was among the greatest American soldiers to ever fight for this country, but I'm not convinced that he was a great general.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Par for the course with you, when actually challenged to support your statements you refuse.



But you have to balance that against how badly he bungled the China situation in Korea and his defeat by the Japanese in the Philippines during the opening days of WW2. I would go as far to say that the US Navy was far more responsible for victory in the Pacific than anything that MacArthur did and that victory would have happened with or without his involvement. If that something that can be said of Washington, Grant, or Sheman - that the US would have won without their involvement?

The landings at Inchon saved the US in Korea and had he not gotten the Chinese involved, I'd be much more willing to move him up my rankings.

MacArthur was among the greatest American soldiers to ever fight for this country, but I'm not convinced that he was a great general.

Here's how it works: you pick your favorite and I'll pick mine. Your selection is not subject to approval by me and vice versa. Okay professor? I believe I explained myself adequately. Besides, you're not really interested in my perspective here anyway. Which strikes me as par for the course for you.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Well that makes more sense. You've been talking about your favorite general. I know that's the title of the thread, but for long stretches of time it has migrated to best. If you've simply been arguing MacArthur as favorite, then you have my apology for pushing the point so hard. My confusion stemmed from what I took to be your use of the superlative (E.G. without parallel, "el numero uno"). This, along with the path of the thread, made me think that you were arguing MacArthur as the best. Your right, that if you've only been talking about favorite then you surely can pick any American who achieved the rank of general.

I've put Sheridan as my favorite and would be completely unable to argue him as best. Another favorite we've had is Custer. I suspect the same would apply.


A final word that should not be meant to carry any weight in the MacArthur discussion, I was just today reminded that it was the very same Douglas MacArthur that put down the Bonus Army...

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

A final word that should not be meant to carry any weight in the MacArthur discussion, I was just today reminded that it was the very same Douglas MacArthur that put down the Bonus Army...

He even led the troops personally. Another example of MacArthur being a great general, if not the greatest human.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Well that makes more sense. You've been talking about your favorite general. I know that's the title of the thread, but for long stretches of time it has migrated to best. If you've simply been arguing MacArthur as favorite, then you have my apology for pushing the point so hard. My confusion stemmed from what I took to be your use of the superlative (E.G. without parallel, "el numero uno"). This, along with the path of the thread, made me think that you were arguing MacArthur as the best. Your right, that if you've only been talking about favorite then you surely can pick any American who achieved the rank of general.

I've put Sheridan as my favorite and would be completely unable to argue him as best. Another favorite we've had is Custer. I suspect the same would apply.


A final word that should not be meant to carry any weight in the MacArthur discussion, I was just today reminded that it was the very same Douglas MacArthur that put down the Bonus Army...

He should have disobeyed the president? None of your obsessive argumentation carries any weight with me. Just so we're clear, your parsing notwithstanding, I believe he was America's greatest general. And I'm free to make that judgement with or without your permission.

 

[Titleist]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

He should have disobeyed the president? None of your obsessive argumentation carries any weight with me. Just so we're clear, your parsing notwithstanding, I believe he was America's greatest general. And I'm free to make that judgement with or without your permission.

Ok, First I took no stance on the Bonus Army and said as much in the post, just that he was the guy commanding it. For the record, I think that as Army COS he did have to do what Hoover ordered, but leading the charge personally probably wasn't necessary.

But since you bring it up, implying that it would have been wrong to disobey the President, Mac did disobey the President in North Korea, so you can't really have it both ways.

And since were dropping the pretense, you are free to make whatever judgement you wish, in this case you are wrong.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Ok, First I took no stance on the Bonus Army and said as much in the post, just that he was the guy commanding it. For the record, I think that as Army COS he did have to do what Hoover ordered, but leading the charge personally probably wasn't necessary.

But since you bring it up, implying that it would have been wrong to disobey the President, Mac did disobey the President in North Korea, so you can't really have it both ways.

And since were dropping the pretense, you are free to make whatever judgement you wish, in this case you are wrong.

"Ooh, that hurt." Not too obsessive here, are you toots? You act like the world is salavating to hear your next pronouncement. Je le doute. I can't have it both ways? That's a laugh. You conveniently forget to mention I didn't bring up the bonus army and that he was relieved of command for disobeying the little hat salesman. What the bleep is your problem? Why not just accept the fact that there's at least one person who posts here who's disinclined to kiss your ring and move on? The only "pretense" here is yours. You don't agree with my analysis of MacArthur, so what? You figure your opinion settles the matter?

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Can I maybe shift gears a little bit. I wonder how much weight in being the best general someone gets who has a technologically superior side. For instance julius Ceasar, I would say that the Romans had just better fighters during his era. Does JC get credit for that? Is he a better general even with the advantage?

 

[Probert]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Can I maybe shift gears a little bit. I wonder how much weight in being the best general someone gets who has a technologically superior side. For instance julius Ceasar, I would say that the Romans had just better fighters during his era. Does JC get credit for that? Is he a better general even with the advantage?

Many of Caesar's greatest victories came against other Roman armies led by Pompey like Pharsulus. In regards to his victories against the Gauls while the Romans were probably the more efficient fighting force he fought in enemy territory for the most part outnumbered. At Alecia he was severely outnumbered, the historic opinion is 3 or 4 to 1 and surrounded on both sides yet managed to win.

Obviously size of force, friendly or enemy territory, supply routes and modernity of weaponry play a factor like the English longbows at Agincourt. I find it very hard to compare modern Generals WWI-present against pre WWI Generals because airpower plays such a decided advantage nowadays the side that wins the conflict is normally the side with superior airpower not a superior army.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

ah-ha Air power.Well there have been instances where the side with the lessor air power won, but not too many.I even have a tough time finding campaigns where there was neutral air power.

 

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

Well there have been instances where the side with the lessor air power won, but not too many.

Dien Bien Phu being perhaps the most famous of them. Though, you could say that dragging artillery pieces to the mountains above the French camp counts as a sort of heavy "air" power.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Favorite US Military General?

It's also nice to have a highly professional officer corps. We don't have a military class. But we do have a system which is as close to a meritocracy as we can get. That's why in the first Gulf war, our commander on the ground, Norman Schwartzkopf, performed brilliantly. Even though the overwhelming majority of Americans had never heard of him.