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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priceless
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Where do you think those "good old boys" were? They certainly weren't in the cities checking green cards. They know the border area the best. Here's one other thing to consider: If we created this border protection in the wake of 9/11, then we're defending the wrong border. The dudes that rammed planes into buildings came through Canada, in fact at one point, they were no more than 2 miles from where I was living at the time.

Are there enough tightly wrapped armed rednecks available to police both borders? I'm not responsible for your inability to keep your arguments straight. I'll say it once more, stemming the tide of illegals over our border(s) is one thing. Identifying, rounding up and deporting millions of illegals who are already here is something different. You seem to be unable to differentiate. At least your arguments seem to have conflated the two.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Why on earth would you think we'd need to catch all 12 million in order for strict enforcement to be a deterrent? For every one you deport, it probably dissuades 5 others from coming in the first place.

Effective border control, which I favor, is one thing. Deporting the millions who are already here is another. Unless you don't want to deport them, except to serve as a deterrant to other potential illegals. These problems are related, but different. And I think your 1 in 5 ratio is from dreamland.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

For 30 years you told me it would trickle down. It hasn't. Now you want me to support the same policies? Sorry, I'm not insane.

First off, I haven't been alive for 30 years, so I couldn't have told you that.

Second off, are you expecting something to be served to you on a platter? Work for it!
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

First off, I haven't been alive for 30 years, so I couldn't have told you that.

Second off, are you expecting something to be served to you on a platter? Work for it!

Wait. Are you saying trickle down isn't a New Deal, Great Society program? I'm shocked.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You want communism? Ask Sweden how that turned out. Or Russia. Or Greece. Or Portugal. Or Spain. Or Italy. Or F- *gets pulled away*

So there are two choices for economic policy - communism or do whatever the hell we want?

By heavily taxing those who are creating jobs...

The concept of, "creating jobs" gets tossed around so frequently most of you don't even know what it actually represents. The economy needs to adjust as do its "job creators". We've had both a housing and technological boon (not to mention in finance and investing) for so long most don't remember what it was that actually made us the legitimate economic power we were - hard work. Crying about tax rates (which should be lowered but is not a cure all) is the antithesis of hard work, rolling up our sleeves and getting it done. Job creators? Give it a rest.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

So there are two choices for economic policy - communism or do whatever the hell we want?

All tax is theft. The only options are a mythical fantasy land where no one pays any taxes or Communism. There is no in-between.

For all the people who complain about Communism, it is funny that China is doing rather well economically...everyone talks about Russia when it comes to Communism, but are remarkably quiet on China.

France, Italy, Germany, Greece, Sweden etc are examples of Socialism, not Communism, but that kind of nuance is lost on many people.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

All tax is theft. The only options are a mythical fantasy land where no one pays any taxes or Communism. There is no in-between.

For all the people who complain about Communism, it is funny that China is doing rather well economically...everyone talks about Russia when it comes to Communism, but are remarkably quiet on China.

France, Italy, Germany, Greece, Sweden etc are examples of Socialism, not Communism, but that kind of nuance is lost on many people.
Actually, China's not as much of a communist economy as some like to think. They government has allowed - for the past number of years - free enterprise, but only so long as they behave in certain ways and still promote their totalitarian government. China's also having quite a few economic issues at the moment due to their tight controls. They've hit major inflationary issues due to dictating exchange rates to the USD while the Federal Reserve has been debasing our currency. This has kept Chinese products cheap across the globe, but their domestic prices are skyrocketing.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Actually, China's not as much of a communist economy as some like to think. They government has allowed - for the past number of years - free enterprise, but only so long as they behave in certain ways and still promote their totalitarian government. China's also having quite a few economic issues at the moment due to their tight controls. They've hit major inflationary issues due to dictating exchange rates to the USD while the Federal Reserve has been debasing our currency. This has kept Chinese products cheap across the globe, but their domestic prices are skyrocketing.

True dat. For those who consider anything socialist could happen in this country, China is more socialist than anything that's been considered here for 50 years. Even though I agree with you that its not as much a communist economy as some would like to think.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Last time I checked, the Yuan is actually APPRECIATING against the dollar...

https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...831700&chddm=2876623&q=CURRENCY:USDCNY&ntsp=0

So I have no clue where this idea that the Yuan is somehow experiencing inflationary pressures when it's been gaining value against the Dollar for seven years (save for when the Chinese purposefully restarted pegging it to the Dollar to prevent it from becoming any stronger against the Dollar from 08-10). Which is what China has desperately tried to prevent so their inexpensive cheap goods don't become expensive cheap goods.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Last time I checked, the Yuan is actually APPRECIATING against the dollar...

https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...831700&chddm=2876623&q=CURRENCY:USDCNY&ntsp=0

So I have no clue where this idea that the Yuan is somehow experiencing inflationary pressures when it's been gaining value against the Dollar for seven years (save for when the Chinese purposefully restarted pegging it to the Dollar to prevent it from becoming any stronger against the Dollar from 08-10). Which is what China has desperately tried to prevent so their inexpensive cheap goods don't become expensive cheap goods.

It's a controlled appreciation based upon a loose peg to the dollar...if it was allowed to float freely on the market, it'd have appreciated far, far more. Internally, inflation is out the wazoo because of that loose peg; we have loose monetary policy, so China is importing it through the peg even though it needs a tighter policy.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Interesting. I didn't find it plausible to grow stronger at such a steady rate against currency that isn't (yet) experiencing inflationary pressure, while still struggling with inflation at home. Just seems backwards.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

They have been trying to pressure a change of the way the Yuan is regulated for awhile. They were minimally successful in the last little bit to loosen things but not by much. They talk about this all the time on NPR.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Interesting. I didn't find it plausible to grow stronger at such a steady rate against currency that isn't (yet) experiencing inflationary pressure, while still struggling with inflation at home. Just seems backwards.

China hasn't run a balance of payments deficit since 1993, and hasn't run a consistent balance of payments deficit since the 80s. Either they've discovered some sort of magic that renders long run equilibria obselete, or they're deliberately intervening to keep their currency low. to keep exports humming.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

China hasn't run a balance of payments deficit since 1993, and hasn't run a consistent balance of payments deficit since the 80s. Either they've discovered some sort of magic that renders long run equilibria obselete, or they're deliberately intervening to keep their currency low. to keep exports humming.

If you ask Michael Savage, it's the latter.

I love how Priceless likes to think that communist policies and effective trade are somewhat related. They're not. How does China do so well? Let's see, they win the labour battles ($71.50/mo in Sichuan vs. $7.25/hr federal) and they win industry battles (eased environmental regulations vs. EPA up the wazoo). Like I've been saying, if the USA wants business back, we need to become competitive.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Like I've been saying, if the USA wants business back, we need to become competitive.

Yes...

And for US, that business needs 1) to focus in US' sweet spot...innovation, content and services 2) allow for the easy reallocation of resources to and significant investment in those areas and 3) aggressive pursuit in overseas markets for them. IMO we're Whole Foods and its not in our best interest to waste resources going after Wal Mart's grocery business.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

If you ask Michael Savage, it's the latter.

I love how Priceless likes to think that communist policies and effective trade are somewhat related. They're not. How does China do so well? Let's see, they win the labour battles ($71.50/mo in Sichuan vs. $7.25/hr federal) and they win industry battles (eased environmental regulations vs. EPA up the wazoo). Like I've been saying, if the USA wants business back, we need to become competitive.

I'm not sure I agree here. I'm more with 5Mn. If you want to race to the bottom with China, you're going to lose. Plain and simple. It's less about bludgeoning away at China's comparative advantage and more about using our own.

Don't organize the economy around arbitrarily chosen exports. Cheap imports are the real benefit of free trade. You can argue that if China wants to keep subsidizing our imports, let 'em. They're taking money from their own citizens and giving it to us. Exports are the price you pay to realize the benefits of cheap imports.

In other words, the fact that China is really, really good at what they do doesn't mean they're not still doing it wrong. :p
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I'm not sure I agree here. I'm more with 5Mn. If you want to race to the bottom with China, you're going to lose. Plain and simple. It's less about bludgeoning away at China's comparative advantage and more about using our own.

Don't organize the economy around arbitrarily chosen exports. Cheap imports are the real benefit of free trade. You can argue that if China wants to keep subsidizing our imports, let 'em. They're taking money from their own citizens and giving it to us. Exports are the price you pay to realize the benefits of cheap imports.

In other words, the fact that China is really, really good at what they do doesn't mean they're not still doing it wrong. :p

If China was doing exporting wrong, they wouldn't be trading anything.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

If you ask Michael Savage, it's the latter.

I love how Priceless likes to think that communist policies and effective trade are somewhat related. They're not. How does China do so well? Let's see, they win the labour battles ($71.50/mo in Sichuan vs. $7.25/hr federal) and they win industry battles (eased environmental regulations vs. EPA up the wazoo). Like I've been saying, if the USA wants business back, we need to become competitive.

Sweet. Deregulate and cut the minimum wage below their's and we'll kick their ***. It's so simple.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

They're doing it wrong because they've voluntarily chosen not to reap the benefits of trade. The purchasing power (and net welfare) of Chinese citizens is much lower than it should be, thanks to China's industrial policy.

Now, China can get away with that because individual liberty isn't real high up on their list of national priorities. Getting as many poor people into factories, on the other hand, does serve important interests. It's also a blatant example of the sort of central planning we usually associate with teh socialism.

You might consider that a model to emulate. But I don't.
 
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