Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[leswp1]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And I'm sure the cut rate pay had nothing to do with the lack of motivation...I still don't believe Americans are flat out unwilling to do any job, but if the job sucks, you do have to compensate them appropriately before they'll do it. Just because you think $8-10/hr is a fair wage for the work doesn't mean others will view it the same way.

Put it this way, if the job is more back breaking than construction, you probably should be paying at least the same wages as construction guys get.

Agreed. I didn't mean it to sound that I agreed with the guy. It is a great example of much of what is wrong. Poor conditions, poor pay, and employer who has come to expect that people should put up with it and has no problem hiring who he hired. Also, if he were to hire at what the labor was really worth people howl in protest because the product price increases and to make him do so is forcing jobs overseas because their products are cheap.

No right answer. What ever choice is made regarding policy it has to be realized the issue is very complex and there is an impact that spreads past just chucking them out. Alabama is a great example of that..

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You need to clarify. Are you talking about controlling the border or identifying, rounding up and deporting illegals? Those are two entirely different things. We can control our borders. And we don't need vigilantes to do it. But that problem is manifestly tiny compared to locating and deporting 12 million or more illegals who can be found in all 50 states. Certainly in order to contemplate removing all the illegals, we'd have to shut down the borders first. And your snark about my mother avoiding the border seems to confirm my point that "armed good old boy volunteers" aren't necessarily the best option for dealing with either of these problems.

Where do you think those "good old boys" were? They certainly weren't in the cities checking green cards. They know the border area the best. Here's one other thing to consider: If we created this border protection in the wake of 9/11, then we're defending the wrong border. The dudes that rammed planes into buildings came through Canada, in fact at one point, they were no more than 2 miles from where I was living at the time.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

What we need to do is turn this into a third-world country so these illegals won't want to come here. Roll back working conditions, get rid of the minimum wage, treat the rivers like corporate dumping grounds and make this a living hell like they have back home. Sally Struthers can do a TV special and ask the Germans to send just 15 Deutsche Marks a day to provide an American kid with food and clothing. Then they won't want to come here anymore! And the ones that are here will want to go home! Problem solved.

Correct. And we're on our way.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Correct. And we're on our way.

And your favoured policies get us there each and every day.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And your favoured policies get us there each and every day.

LOL

You think the Democrats are creating income disparity? Please explain. I gotta hear this one. If you can pull that one off I bet you can explain Mitt Romney's position on immigration.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

LOL

You think the Democrats are creating income disparity? Please explain. I gotta hear this one. If you can pull that one off I bet you can explain Mitt Romney's position on immigration.

By heavily taxing those who are creating jobs, you are giving those people less incentive to actually hire, thereby increasing unemployment, placing more people on entitlement welfare, and creating a larger class separation. You think the social security tax break actually increased employment? Heck no! The only thing it did was increase the deficit.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

if the job sucks, you do have to compensate them appropriately before they'll do it. Just because you think $8-10/hr is a fair wage for the work doesn't mean others will view it the same way.

Put it this way, if the job is more back breaking than construction, you probably should be paying at least the same wages as construction guys get.

Sounds nice in theory....have you ever hired people?

More typically the consideration is, "can we make enough incremental money by hiring this person so that we earn more than his/her salary in return for the work s/he does for us?"

That question of "effort vs value" is always one of the most vexing problems between employer and employee.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You think the Democrats are creating income disparity? Please explain. I gotta hear this one.

Their policies have made it extremely difficult for a person with a really low income to aspire to have merely a low income. The "cliff" between qualifying for the Earned Income Credit to advancing above that is steep and severe. The marginal income tax rate at that transition point is around 40%.

You say you want to help people learn to help themselves yet the practical impact of these policies is to put a very low ceiling on those aspirations.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Their policies have made it extremely difficult for a person with a really low income to aspire to have merely a low income. The "cliff" between qualifying for the Earned Income Credit to advancing above that is steep and severe. The marginal income tax rate at that transition point is around 40%.

You say you want to help people learn to help themselves yet the practical impact of these policies is to put a very low ceiling on those aspirations.

Two parts to this.

One is poor and incentives. There you focus funds on retraining, education and aiding organizations that hire disadvantaged rather than just giving out cash to the poor. Does that mean that you cap or reduce these funds? No you probably increase them...but get it straight.

I know a inner city guy who I have really nothing in common with...he has my phone number and is asking for money. I will not give him $40...but I am going to buy him a cheap lawnmower because I want to help so he can go make some money mowing the neighbors lawn. That's the way you do it. True story.

Second is the wealthy and businesses. I don't think we should increase income tax on the most wealthy. But rather we should make sure inheretance tax remains...and we should absolutely increase the cap gains tax. We should not be disincentivising the rich to create wealth for society through sweat and creativity. But cap gains tax are a joke and where much of unproductive rich make their money. There is no reason why I should pay a lower tax on my money made by my other money while sitting on my butt all day than someone who works 60 hours a week over a burner at McDonalds.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

By heavily taxing those who are creating jobs, you are giving those people less incentive to actually hire, thereby increasing unemployment, placing more people on entitlement welfare, and creating a larger class separation. You think the social security tax break actually increased employment? Heck no! The only thing it did was increase the deficit.

They werent creating jobs before Obama, keep trying though.

Face facts, smart businesses are outsourcing every job they can. Tax rates arent going to change that, only the dropping of the minimum wage will.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

we should absolutely increase the cap gains tax. We should not be disincentivising the rich to create wealth for society through sweat and creativity. But cap gains tax are a joke and where much of unproductive rich make their money. There is no reason why I should pay a lower tax on my money made by my other money while sitting on my butt all day than someone who works 60 hours a week over a burner at McDonalds.

um, that might make sense if corporate income tax rates were low, however, if you own stock in a company, the company pays income tax first before any of its earnings accrue to you afterward. It's a bit myopic to ignore the corporate income tax rate (now highest in industrialized world), no?

I wouldn't mind if corp income tax rates + cap gains tax rate <= highest personal income tax rate. that's not the case now.

Ideally corporate income tax rate would be 0% so that all income from whatever source is only taxed once, to the owners. that won't happen since Congress likes to disguise how heavy the tax burden truly is: "if they don't see it they won't notice it and we can sneak one past them!"

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Second is the wealthy and businesses. I don't think we should increase income tax on the most wealthy. But rather we should make sure inheretance tax remains...and we should absolutely increase the cap gains tax. We should not be disincentivising the rich to create wealth for society through sweat and creativity. But cap gains tax are a joke and where much of unproductive rich make their money. There is no reason why I should pay a lower tax on my money made by my other money while sitting on my butt all day than someone who works 60 hours a week over a burner at McDonalds.

I don't think ANYONE on the left who is complaining about capital gains and dividends even knows how the tax system actually works. There is a smaller rate, but it only applies to QUALIFIED dividends and LONG TERM capital gains. Time for an explanation:

Qualified dividends are only qualified for certain companies (it's most of them, however there are some, like REITs and bond ETFs, who are not qualified), and you only qualify for the lower rate if you hold the stock for 61 days within a 121-day period encircling the time of the dividend's record date (60 days before, 60 days after, and the 121st is of course the date itself). The incentive of the lower rate is to keep your money invested with a company so they are able to create wealth for society. If you don't hold the stock for long enough, you must pay taxes on the dividends as if it were wage income.

Long term capital gains work in a similar manner, and for the same reasons. You must hold the stock for LONGER than one year to qualify for the lower rate. Once again, if you don't hold it long enough, the capital gain is treated as if it were wage income. This is to make sure that those creating wealth for society through sweat and creativity are given ample time to do it.

The stock market is a method of fundraising. If it weren't for those "unproductive rich", no company would have the money to be able to provide a good or service they wish to provide. Consider the TV show "Shark Tank". The panelists, or "unproductive rich" as you call them, are putting up large amounts of money to give normal people an opportunity to sell their idea that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do due to a lack of money. You want to punish that?

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

By heavily taxing those who are creating jobs, you are giving those people less incentive to actually hire, thereby increasing unemployment, placing more people on entitlement welfare, and creating a larger class separation. You think the social security tax break actually increased employment? Heck no! The only thing it did was increase the deficit.

Ummm....then...where were all the jobs during the Bush administration?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Ummm....then...where were all the jobs during the Bush administration?

Private sector. Unless you only want to talk about 2007-08 when the San Francisco **** was leading the house.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I don't think ANYONE on the left who is complaining about capital gains and dividends even knows how the tax system actually works.

Yes, Warren Buffett is a moron when it comes to money.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Ummm....then...where were all the jobs during the Bush administration?

India.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Yes, Warren Buffett is a moron when it comes to money.

You're just assuming he wants to help the country. I wouldn't be surprised if, once taxmageddon hits, he withdraws his investments, finds a nice account for it in the Bahamas, and skips the country.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Seriously, you're still riding this horse****?

30 years of failure? That's nothing. If we just do it more, it's sure to work!

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

You're just assuming he wants to help the country. I wouldn't be surprised if, once taxmageddon hits, he withdraws his investments, finds a nice account for it in the Bahamas, and skips the country.

He's one of the wealthiest men in the world...is there a reason he hasn't already "skipped the country" if that's what he has in mind? What, he just wants to crater the American economy for gits and shiggles?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Seriously, you're still riding this horse****?

30 years of failure? That's nothing. If we just do it more, it's sure to work!

You want communism? Ask Sweden how that turned out. Or Russia. Or Greece. Or Portugal. Or Spain. Or Italy. Or F- *gets pulled away*