Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Do the sins of the father get visited upon the son? In this case, I would think yes, especially with the high unemployment.

We are a nation of laws. Which laws do we ignore (though El Presidente seems to make that a mantra) and which to we enforce?

Sounds like we don't have to enforce that one if unemployment drops...right?

Romney's campaign can't decide either. One adviser says Obama's policy is "illegal" and another says it's "the same" as Romney's policy. So does Romney support a policy that's illegal, or does he not think the policy is illegal?

Or does he just wish the issue would just go away?

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Sounds like we don't have to enforce that one if unemployment drops...right?

Romney's campaign can't decide either. One adviser says Obama's policy is "illegal" and another says it's "the same" as Romney's policy. So does Romney support a policy that's illegal, or does he not think the policy is illegal?

Or does he just wish the issue would just go away?

(a) If unemployment was around 4%, especially among the youth, the illegal "problem" would not be that much on the radar
(b) Is it "Silence is golden" or "Silence implies acceptance"?? I don't like the President being so open about selective enforcement of laws he does not like. Then again, Mitt, poop or get off the pot.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Clearly more insanity is needed.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

(a) If unemployment was around 4%, especially among the youth, the illegal "problem" would not be that much on the radar

So we don't have to enforce laws that aren't important.

Noted Marxist Bill Kristol just said Obama's policy is "the right thing to do." This is really causing havoc in the GOP ranks.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

So we don't have to enforce laws that aren't important.

Noted Marxist Bill Kristol just said Obama's policy is "the right thing to do." This is really causing havoc in the GOP ranks.

If you want a primary example see speeding, NJ Turnpike.

 

[duper]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Obviously we won't get them all, but if we have citizens volunteering to do it instead of overpaying the pensions of a bunch of doughnut eaters, something might actually get done.

This might be the worst idea I've ever heard. Frankly, I couldn't agree with OP more in his earlier comment about vilgilanteism.

Who do you think would volunteer for this? Predominantly fine, moral, upstanding citizens with no purpose other than to enforce the law of the land? It's really difficult for me to see a problem with legitimizing people who have lived most of their lives in our system, following our laws, and trying to be productive members of our society.

And to everyone who responds, but being here is breaking the law: how often, after realizing that you were driving 50 in a 40 have you been tempted to head straight to the nearest cop shop and report yourself? Have you ever taken a questionable deduction on your taxes? Have you ever made a copy of copyrighted material? Here's a biggie; have you ever driven after having more than one or two drinks? I would honestly be willing to bet a significant amount of money that well over 99 percent of all of the "good, honest" people in the country have broken a law that someone somewhere thinks was a terrible law to break.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

This might be the worst idea I've ever heard. Frankly, I couldn't agree with OP more in his earlier comment about vilgilanteism.

Who do you think would volunteer for this? Predominantly fine, moral, upstanding citizens with no purpose other than to enforce the law of the land? It's really difficult for me to see a problem with legitimizing people who have lived most of their lives in our system, following our laws, and trying to be productive members of our society.

And to everyone who responds, but being here is breaking the law: how often, after realizing that you were driving 50 in a 40 have you been tempted to head straight to the nearest cop shop and report yourself? Have you ever taken a questionable deduction on your taxes? Have you ever made a copy of copyrighted material? Here's a biggie; have you ever driven after having more than one or two drinks? I would honestly be willing to bet a significant amount of money that well over 99 percent of all of the "good, honest" people in the country have broken a law that someone somewhere thinks was a terrible law to break.

Or downloaded music?

 

[leswp1]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And people are still wondering why I won't vote for Romney, despite seeming to be, in their eyes, an "evil republican"... http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/romney_won_say_he_ll_overturn_obama_583srGeBS9hogwh1vQD7ZK

Don't worry, he will change his mind again.

I have a hard time with the kid factor here. Not keen on the OK to break the law thing but I struggle when the kid will probably be at risk. Not all of these kids are Satan's spawn. Many of these kids are 'good citizens', good students and if given a chance would be very productive members of society. They were brought here before they knew what was what. Unless we are living in lala land it is not realistic to expect them to do the right thing and turn themselves in. By the time they would be able to work this out like an adult they are old enough to know they wouldn't have the resources to survive somewhere else on their own. I am an adult who has travelled fairly often and if someone told me I needed to leave this country because I was illegally here I would have a hard time marshalling resources to feel I would be safe to survive somewhere else.

When people make a blanket statement to just throw them out I wonder if there is really any thought that has gone into the consequences. Very easy to say stuff like that but not particularly human or practical. To deport them would endanger them. Not every kid has a family in the old country just lurking ready to take them in if needed. If you are able to really think of the consequences of that and are OK with it I don't know what to say. Would you be able to handle physically carrying that child out of the country, dropping them where ever and walk away without feeling any remorse? If another country were to do that we would howl at the inhumanity of it.

As my MUm used to say 2 wrongs don't make a right. Their being here is most definitely wrong. Treating defensless children like excess trash would be wrong. Somehow there has to be a pragmatic, humane way to deal with this

 

[DavidSec17]

Yeah, picking tomatoes is really a threat to our national security. Confusing day laborers with the British circa 1776 is a terribly dangerous premise.

So according to you, all illegals pick tomatoes or work on farms? Ever heard the things that go on in Arizona and Texas? Stop being so nieve.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Tell your mother not to go near the border.

You need to clarify. Are you talking about controlling the border or identifying, rounding up and deporting illegals? Those are two entirely different things. We can control our borders. And we don't need vigilantes to do it. But that problem is manifestly tiny compared to locating and deporting 12 million or more illegals who can be found in all 50 states. Certainly in order to contemplate removing all the illegals, we'd have to shut down the borders first. And your snark about my mother avoiding the border seems to confirm my point that "armed good old boy volunteers" aren't necessarily the best option for dealing with either of these problems.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Or downloaded music?

Or torn the tag off a mattress?

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Don't worry, he will change his mind again.

I have a hard time with the kid factor here. Not keen on the OK to break the law thing but I struggle when the kid will probably be at risk. Not all of these kids are Satan's spawn. Many of these kids are 'good citizens', good students and if given a chance would be very productive members of society. They were brought here before they knew what was what

My wife had a client who was 22, had lived in the country since he was 5, didn't speak Spanish, doesn't remember Mexico at all, graduated from college, but faced deportation for a fairly minor crime.

Yeah, I have no problem with that guy staying in the U.S.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

So according to you, all illegals pick tomatoes or work on farms? Ever heard the things that go on in Arizona and Texas? Stop being so nieve.

I find three things wrong with this sentence. Bonus points to the person who can find all three first!!!!

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Or torn the tag off a mattress?

hahaha

Although, I think it's only illegal if the mattress is to be sold by you (commercial or personal sales).

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Where I come from, every citizen is responsible for the security of this country, not just a few elected/appointed bureaucrats.

Interesting. In your world, law enforcement officers are "bureaucrats." Hmmm.

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

And to everyone who responds, but being here is breaking the law: how often, after realizing that you were driving 50 in a 40 have you been tempted to head straight to the nearest cop shop and report yourself?

The best part is that overstaying a visa still isn't a crime; it's a civil violation. Even entering the country illegally has only been a crime for the last 5-10 years; before that, it was a civil violation as well. So someone who's been here 15 years or more is not a criminal.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

We couldn't begin to afford tracking down, processing, jailing and ultimately deporting 12 million people. Never gonna happen.

Why on earth would you think we'd need to catch all 12 million in order for strict enforcement to be a deterrent? For every one you deport, it probably dissuades 5 others from coming in the first place.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Why don't we work on making it less hospitable in a more intelligent way. How about making the penalty for hiring these folks more than what the illegal people are penalized. They wouldn't come in such high #s if there is no demand/benifit to it. Lots of going on about those horrible people who are illegal while they are trying to do the thing that we consider the most basic part of the American dream- getting ahead. Not so much talk about the people who are hiring them to farm, work in factories, work as domestics etc for cut rates, no responsibilities for Soc Security, etc. In Fall River they deported almost an entire shift of factory workers. All were gainfully employed not dealing drugs and shooting people (not saying they were right to be here). We heard nada about the punishment for the owners of the factory who apparently went out of his way to hire illegals. Is anyone forcefully proposing real punishment on the federal level? I haven't seen it. DOesn't surprise me because there are a lot of fat cats that get great benefit from having these folks around.

Has anyone done a study of what would happen if we were to remove all these folks? I wouldn't even know where to look for a legit one. On one side I hear the need to expel everyone folks who feel that this would produce jobs for all the unemployed. Then I have heard some stuff where economists have been talking about how it would cripple certain 'industries/ lines of work' like farming ventures. Of course you have the audiovisual aid- Alabama who lost part of their tomato crop rotting on the vines this past yr because there was no one to pick . During that heard one of the farmers interviewed bemoaning the state of things. The people they hired who weren't immigrants couldn't hack it like the workers they lost. He basically said the people who were not immigrants just weren't of the caliber as the ones the state had driven away, they didn't have the motivation and weren't willing to work in those conditions.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

What we need to do is turn this into a third-world country so these illegals won't want to come here. Roll back working conditions, get rid of the minimum wage, treat the rivers like corporate dumping grounds and make this a living hell like they have back home. Sally Struthers can do a TV special and ask the Germans to send just 15 Deutsche Marks a day to provide an American kid with food and clothing. Then they won't want to come here anymore! And the ones that are here will want to go home! Problem solved.

 

[unofan]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The people they hired who weren't immigrants couldn't hack it like the workers they lost. He basically said the people who were not immigrants just weren't of the caliber as the ones the state had driven away, they didn't have the motivation and weren't willing to work in those conditions.

And I'm sure the cut rate pay had nothing to do with the lack of motivation...I still don't believe Americans are flat out unwilling to do any job, but if the job sucks, you do have to compensate them appropriately before they'll do it. Just because you think $8-10/hr is a fair wage for the work doesn't mean others will view it the same way.

Put it this way, if the job is more back breaking than construction, you probably should be paying at least the same wages as construction guys get.