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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
What can I say? My sheer presence causes confrontation.
oh, great, a Priceless / FlagDude throwdown.
sort of "the blind leading the deaf on how to be lame"
What can I say? My sheer presence causes confrontation.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
FF made a comment about corporate income tax. I see that as independent. Get the corp tax right and get the cap gains tax right because the two are not necessarily always connected. I gain buy and sell commodities, make a ton of money, pay little in tax and that may have nothing to do with corp taxes.
The point is long term cap gains. A year is really not that long...its alot easier than actually working for a living. I've been enough of a beneficiary here.
So this is about the big picture...we don't really want to tax anyone. Nobody and nothing. But we also don't get nothing for free in this life.
So collectively we have to pay. You can tax companies, you can tax poor's working income, you can tax the wealthy's working income and you can tax money being made off money. I don't want to disincentivise corporate investment/decision making nor working class families ability to make it or the rich's ability to generate economic value and generate wealth for others. That leaves making money off of money as the least bad option. Which is why I wonder that the LT cap gains rate is so far lower than income tax rates. And I don't buy the argument that folks will forgo effortless, free money on their money and put it under the mattress because cap gains rates get raised to be comparable to income tax rates.
FF made a comment about corporate income tax. I see that as independent. Get the corp tax right and get the cap gains tax right because the two are not necessarily always connected. I gain buy and sell commodities, make a ton of money, pay little in tax and that may have nothing to do with corp taxes.
The point is long term cap gains. A year is really not that long...its alot easier than actually working for a living. I've been enough of a beneficiary here.
So this is about the big picture...we don't really want to tax anyone. Nobody and nothing. But we also don't get nothing for free in this life.
So collectively we have to pay. You can tax companies, you can tax poor's working income, you can tax the wealthy's working income and you can tax money being made off money. I don't want to disincentivise corporate investment/decision making nor working class families ability to make it or the rich's ability to generate economic value and generate wealth for others. That leaves making money off of money as the least bad option. Which is why I wonder that the LT cap gains rate is so far lower than income tax rates. And I don't buy the argument that folks will forgo effortless, free money on their money and put it under the mattress because cap gains rates get raised to be comparable to income tax rates.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
If we have different rates taxing different sources of income, and have legions of lawyers and accountants trying to make sense of same, would it be simpler to either tax consumption or treat all income the same and tax it identically??
If we have different rates taxing different sources of income, and have legions of lawyers and accountants trying to make sense of same, would it be simpler to either tax consumption or treat all income the same and tax it identically??
leswp1
New member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Why is it that either side has to be absolutely right? Both arguments have huge flaws. The job creator thing is the biggest myth since the emperors new clothes it hasn't worked yet and this is the second time in my life people have tried to push it. (I was only a teen the first time and it was a disaster.) Raising taxes will not change the mindset that got us here in the first place- people need to be given a fishing rod, not fish. We don't seem to put much $ into job training or why not having those people do community service or have something productive to do to get the $? Saying we shouldn't do stuff to retrain is short sighted. It just makes sure we have a next generation of people who can't help themselves.
As far as I can see people are so entrenched in the need to be right/to have their way only with no compromise that no one ever thinks to work together to achieve something. And certainly no polititian seems to have the capabilities to look past the next election cycle and work out a long term solution. It is kind of like watching a sissy fight that never ends.
Why is it that either side has to be absolutely right? Both arguments have huge flaws. The job creator thing is the biggest myth since the emperors new clothes it hasn't worked yet and this is the second time in my life people have tried to push it. (I was only a teen the first time and it was a disaster.) Raising taxes will not change the mindset that got us here in the first place- people need to be given a fishing rod, not fish. We don't seem to put much $ into job training or why not having those people do community service or have something productive to do to get the $? Saying we shouldn't do stuff to retrain is short sighted. It just makes sure we have a next generation of people who can't help themselves.
As far as I can see people are so entrenched in the need to be right/to have their way only with no compromise that no one ever thinks to work together to achieve something. And certainly no polititian seems to have the capabilities to look past the next election cycle and work out a long term solution. It is kind of like watching a sissy fight that never ends.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
You falsely assume they are guaranteed to make money. There is risk involved. The after-tax return is what determines whether the risk of losing money is worth the investment. The lower the rate the more likely people will be to invest and investment is certainly a good thing for the country.
You falsely assume they are guaranteed to make money. There is risk involved. The after-tax return is what determines whether the risk of losing money is worth the investment. The lower the rate the more likely people will be to invest and investment is certainly a good thing for the country.
leswp1
New member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
This argument always baffles me. The guy couldn't spend all the money he has even if he tried. Why would he do that for $ he won't notice being gone? This is the argument for a lot of the European countries. They still have rich citizens. The Brits were on about this when I was there as a kid. The rich did not all decamp, enmasse as threatened. Didn't someone list the percentage tax per income for the world at some point? The US is practically a tax haven if I remember correectly.
Duh. THis would take away jobs from all the lawyers and accountants.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
At this point a significant percentage of jobs can be anywhere. That all production/service jobs aren't in a place with lower costs is a wonder. Our 'angle' is to have the most expensive and most protected work force in the world. Certainly one way to go. But then we can't complain if jobs go to a place where they are less expensive.
We should all be clear that it isn't just hourly wages and benefits...there are a plethora of regulations in this country that also make it more expensive to staff here. Everything from workers comp to individual state labor laws to OSHA standards to insurance levels make the work more expensive. And there are new rules and regulations every year.
Anybody that has ever staffed jobs in CA can tell you it is far more expensive to put jobs in CA than almost any other state. They have the most progressive policies and that translates into increased costs which often translates into jobs leaving the state. That is their choice, if it works for their budgets and employment levels, then, there you go.
Now, that isn't an endorsement of sweat shops etc...we just have to realize that we have said you can't do business in the US without this level of additional expense. It is what it is. I would bet few of the regulations are just backwards...they all have some justification...but not a cost justification.
We could try to force other countries to the same level of expense but I'm guessing that won't be happening in the near future.
At this point a significant percentage of jobs can be anywhere. That all production/service jobs aren't in a place with lower costs is a wonder. Our 'angle' is to have the most expensive and most protected work force in the world. Certainly one way to go. But then we can't complain if jobs go to a place where they are less expensive.
We should all be clear that it isn't just hourly wages and benefits...there are a plethora of regulations in this country that also make it more expensive to staff here. Everything from workers comp to individual state labor laws to OSHA standards to insurance levels make the work more expensive. And there are new rules and regulations every year.
Anybody that has ever staffed jobs in CA can tell you it is far more expensive to put jobs in CA than almost any other state. They have the most progressive policies and that translates into increased costs which often translates into jobs leaving the state. That is their choice, if it works for their budgets and employment levels, then, there you go.
Now, that isn't an endorsement of sweat shops etc...we just have to realize that we have said you can't do business in the US without this level of additional expense. It is what it is. I would bet few of the regulations are just backwards...they all have some justification...but not a cost justification.
We could try to force other countries to the same level of expense but I'm guessing that won't be happening in the near future.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
"Supply side economics is their religion and tax cuts are their Jesus"
"Supply side economics is their religion and tax cuts are their Jesus"
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
The GOP may be about a free lunch, but there are many of us on the right that are not so naïve. I'm about cutting spending that demotes workfare, and then giving people reason to invest in someone else in order to grow and prosper.
The GOP may be about a free lunch, but there are many of us on the right that are not so naïve. I'm about cutting spending that demotes workfare, and then giving people reason to invest in someone else in order to grow and prosper.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
We have this discussion frequently...and I never assume there is no risk.
When companies invest large sums of money in projects that fail...the government isn't expected to repay them for their upfront investment. When individuals invest in college and they don't get employed...the government isn't expected to compensate folks for their university costs. IMO there's no reason that risk investments should be covered by the government. Even so, income gains still need taxed...without which there is no revenue for all public goods...roads, police, defense, etc.
Again...I'm not saying tax for the heck of it...spending is a whole other ballgame, but we actually have to tax something. Making money on money via lt cap gains is least bad yet for some reason is taxed at a lower rate.
We have this discussion frequently...and I never assume there is no risk.
When companies invest large sums of money in projects that fail...the government isn't expected to repay them for their upfront investment. When individuals invest in college and they don't get employed...the government isn't expected to compensate folks for their university costs. IMO there's no reason that risk investments should be covered by the government. Even so, income gains still need taxed...without which there is no revenue for all public goods...roads, police, defense, etc.
Again...I'm not saying tax for the heck of it...spending is a whole other ballgame, but we actually have to tax something. Making money on money via lt cap gains is least bad yet for some reason is taxed at a lower rate.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Selling a house is actually considered a capital gain. Don't let the facts tamper with your poor left-wing mind, though.
Selling a house is actually considered a capital gain. Don't let the facts tamper with your poor left-wing mind, though.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
It's only a gain if you made money off the sale. Genius.
It's only a gain if you made money off the sale. Genius.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
It's still under the same rules as common stock. DuMass.
It's still under the same rules as common stock. DuMass.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
I don't care.
You think that we need to decrease risk to job creators and increase it for middle class families. I don't. That's my point and that's the argument the country is having right now.
I don't care.
You think that we need to decrease risk to job creators and increase it for middle class families. I don't. That's my point and that's the argument the country is having right now.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
With great risks can potentially come great rewards.
You think that opportunity needs to be squelched for middle class families and only allowed for job creators. I don't. That's my point and that's the argument the country is having right now.
With great risks can potentially come great rewards.
You think that opportunity needs to be squelched for middle class families and only allowed for job creators. I don't. That's my point and that's the argument the country is having right now.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
For 30 years you told me it would trickle down. It hasn't. Now you want me to support the same policies? Sorry, I'm not insane.
For 30 years you told me it would trickle down. It hasn't. Now you want me to support the same policies? Sorry, I'm not insane.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
And also great disaster. If people want to take risks, fine. But let's not act like everyone who takes risks suceeds. For every Bill Gates, there's a hundred Willy Lomans.
And also great disaster. If people want to take risks, fine. But let's not act like everyone who takes risks suceeds. For every Bill Gates, there's a hundred Willy Lomans.
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