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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priceless
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Interesting. (I mean that innocently).

It always seemed like he didn't have a taste for national-level politics. I guess this confirms it.

Not sure what this means for Purdue. I guess they're hoping his connections turn into major donations.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I love how Priceless likes to think that communist policies and effective trade are somewhat related. They're not. How does China do so well? Let's see, they win the labour battles ($71.50/mo in Sichuan vs. $7.25/hr federal) and they win industry battles (eased environmental regulations vs. EPA up the wazoo). Like I've been saying, if the USA wants business back, we need to become competitive.

I'm not the one holding up Sweden as an example of "communism." I wasn't aware Sweden was a Communist nation. When did this change happen?

"Become more competitive" is a lovely colloquialism for abolishing the minimum wage and getting rid of any and all regulations, pollution controls, worker safety etc. Chinese "workers" commit suicide by jumping out of windows so regularly that they've started putting nets around buildings to catch them....sounds beautiful. Let's bring this worker's paradise to America!
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I'm not the one holding up Sweden as an example of "communism." I wasn't aware Sweden was a Communist nation. When did this change happen?

Once Sweden figured out that the health care system we're trying to emulate completely bankrupted the country.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

"Become more competitive" is a lovely colloquialism for abolishing the minimum wage and getting rid of any and all regulations, pollution controls, worker safety etc. Chinese "workers" commit suicide by jumping out of windows so regularly that they've started putting nets around buildings to catch them....sounds beautiful. Let's bring this worker's paradise to America!

It'd certainly cut down on unemployment.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

One part of Disney's version of "The Grasshopper and the Ant" fable that I found striking was the Grasshopper's gratitude at finding something useful to do to provide for himself. It clearly and succinctly points out the very serious moral flaw at the heart of the modern welfare state.

Perhaps a personal anecdote might help illustrate. In early July 1998 we were driving through Iowa on I-80 in the middle of the night, when a deer appeared in the headlights. I didn't want to risk losing control of the car by swerving or slamming on the brakes, and so I tried to steer around it and was mostly successful, striking only a glancing blow on the right front fender.

At first, it appeared to be a successful maneuver, as we were able to keep driving*. However, after several miles, the car began to overheat, and so we got off at the next exit. 2 AM in the middle of nowhere. Thus began a series of encounters with kind strangers who helped us out in our time of need: a passerby saw us in trouble and stopped in a nearby time to arrange an emergency tow. A passing policeman saw us sleeping in the car at the service station and took us to a motel. People would see us walking and stop and say "hey, are you the stranded family? Hop in, we'll give you a ride." After church service, someone came up to us and said "Are you the stranded family? Let me take you to brunch." A huge shout-out to the townspeople of Atlantic, Iowa for all the kindness and assistance.

A key element of this anecdote was that we were clearly identified as people in need. Contrast that to today's Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program, which tries to disguise the participants' need. Why? "to protect them from embarrassment" is the stated reason. A cynic might retort "to allow them to remain comfortable if they remain in the program indefinitely."

The central take-away for me, from the Disney version of the fable and my own experience, is that there was a reciprocal relationship between the giver and the recipient. While never explicitly stated, it was understood that we would "pay it forward" by helping other people in their time of need (which we have done, and when asked "how can we repay you" we told them flat out "while you can't repay us but you can help others when they need it." We've lived in small towns where people were better served with no public assistance than people are today.

The modern welfare state is morally corrupt because it wrongly focuses attention on two areas while ignoring that which is most important. First, it focuses solely on the short-term material needs of the recipients, while subtly corrupting their ability to grow as human beings by making a difference to others. It also appears to be designed more to assuage a sense of guilt in the well-off than it does to provide a meaningful hand up (we have 48 different job training programs run by different agencies of the federal government; yet a recent GAO study says that the programs are designed to meet the needs of the people running them, not for the people participating in them [citation needed].

Finally, the worst part is that it breaks the link, interrupts the cycle, however you want to describe it, of generosity and gratitude and mutual reciprocity, and replaces it with confiscation and resentment and envy. Once we had a civil society, we are now devolving into mutually-exclusive armed camps, and the flawed structure of the modern welfare state is a major reason why. Neither conservative nor progressive has presented a viable answer.








*I have to chuckle whenever I recall this story...everyone else was asleep, and of course the impact woke them. My son's first question was "is the deer okay?" It turned out that our ceramic radiator was cracked, and 4th of July weekend made it hard to get a replacement for several days, hence our becoming the stranded family.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Once Sweden figured out that the health care system we're trying to emulate completely bankrupted the country.

Amazing. What about Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece? I never realized Berlusconi or Juan Carlos were Communists. Learn something new everyday...
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Amazing. What about Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece? I never realized Berlusconi or Juan Carlos were Communists. Learn something new everyday...
Didn't you know? All Europeans are Communists! ;) (except Margaret Thatcher of course)
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Dang, we lost the Cold War after all? That blows.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Is FreshFish still yapping about that stupid Disney movie...ah movies made by Nazis always make me so happy ;)

What's next, using the Lion King to talk about Darwinism? How about Toy Story as an allegory of how the Republicans and Democrats are divided just like Woody and Buzz!
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Is FreshFish still yapping about that stupid Disney movie...ah movies made by Nazis always make me so happy ;)

What's next, using the Lion King to talk about Darwinism? How about Toy Story as an allegory of how the Republicans and Democrats are divided just like Woody and Buzz!

They're not flying! They're falling with style!
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Actually, I'm a sucker for allegories. I like FF's story.

I'm just not sure I buy that the welfare state is behind the decline of community spirit. I'm happy to consider the possibility that it created perverse incentives for some individuals . . . but communitarianism has always competed with individualism in this country. And if civic spirit is in decline, it's probably due to a whole host of factors. If I were a Marxian, I'd say its completely overdetermined. :p
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I'd be careful.... "Community" and "Communism" are pretty close in the dictionary...

ETA: France and Sweden play today at the European Championships...which Communist nation should we root for? :confused:
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I'd be careful.... "Community" and "Communism" are pretty close in the dictionary...

ETA: France and Sweden play today at the European Championships...which Communist nation should we root for? :confused:
Its Soccer , who gives a rats ***
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I'd be careful.... "Community" and "Communism" are pretty close in the dictionary...

ETA: France and Sweden play today at the European Championships...which Communist nation should we root for? :confused:

Someone is SO preoccupied by an obsession over the perception of "evil republican" that that someone did not closely read what I said. I said that Sweden USED to have those policies until they realised that it wasn't working.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Meanwhile, MSNBC is in full campaign mode:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/msnbc-misquotes-romney-invents-wawa-gaffe.html

". . .he looks black."

In walking back this deliberate misrepresentation, Andrea Mitchell said: "We didn't get a chance to show that. . .so here it is now." Meaning, evidently, some unknown force made them edit the piece deceptively. Bollocks.
 
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