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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priceless
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

amherstblackbear said:
I'm just not sure I buy that the welfare state is behind the decline of community spirit. I'm happy to consider the possibility that it created perverse incentives for some individuals . . . but communitarianism has always competed with individualism in this country. And if civic spirit is in decline, it's probably due to a whole host of factors.
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In the investment world one measures "correlation" as a factor somewhere between -1 and +1....I would say there is a correlation of about 50% but how to measure? As you put it, there are "perverse incentives for some individuals." Mayor Richard Daley II put it best when he said you have to be really careful when you do someone a favor because in today's society people can turn that into a "right."

To me it is not "communitarianism vs individualism" so much as it is "society vs government." Take Habitat for Humanity for example, part of a wonderful American tradition that is centuries old, the "welcome to our community house-raising party" event. You cannot have "individualism" without a strong background of "communitarianism" or else you wind up with the Tower of Babel (the Bible story not the movie).

With society there are reciprocal obligations, once government gets in the middle you break the bonds in both directions: a "donation" becomes a "tax" and a "favor" becomes a "right."

That's what I see as the biggest background issue in the upcoming election: do we want to have a permanent government involvement as the middleman in everything we do?

The evidence is pretty clear: most of the time, a government program worsens the condition it is supposed to improve, by taking a temporary situation and making it a permanent problem.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Old Pio said:
Meanwhile, MSNBC is in full campaign mode:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/msnbc-misquotes-romney-invents-wawa-gaffe.html

". . .he looks black."

In walking back this deliberate misrepresentation, Andrea Mitchell said: "We didn't get a chance to show that. . .so here it is now." Meaning, evidently, some unknown force made them edit the piece deceptively. Bollocks.
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leave it to you to misrepresent the misrepresentation.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The bottom line is that Romney was comparing private sector innovation to government bureaucracy. The "wow" was not an expression of wonderment at Wawa's ordering system -- it was a wow at the contrast he had just described.

MSNBC clearly spun it as a GHW Bush moment, recalling older Bush's ill-timed "gaffe" with supermarket price scanners back in 1992. MSNBC hasn't been caught doing anything as blatantly stupid as some of Fox's tricks (using a b-roll of union violence with palm trees in the background when reporting on unions in WI), but they're playing the same game.

It's for entertainment purposes only. Any actual education is incidental.

It's junk food. I'm not telling anyone to avoid Reese's peanut butter cups. That would be stupid. They're delicious. Especially refrigerated or frozen.

Wait, where was I? Oh, right. Reese's are delicious. Just don't eat them for dinner.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Old Pio said:
Meanwhile, MSNBC is in full campaign mode:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/msnbc-misquotes-romney-invents-wawa-gaffe.html

". . .he looks black."

In walking back this deliberate misrepresentation, Andrea Mitchell said: "We didn't get a chance to show that. . .so here it is now." Meaning, evidently, some unknown force made them edit the piece deceptively. Bollocks.
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Good thing Brent isn't running for President. :p:D
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

amherstblackbear said:
The bottom line is that Romney was comparing private sector innovation to government bureaucracy. The "wow" was not an expression of wonderment at Wawa's ordering system -- it was a wow at the contrast he had just described.

MSNBC clearly spun it as a GHW Bush moment, recalling older Bush's ill-timed "gaffe" with supermarket price scanners back in 1992. MSNBC hasn't been caught doing anything as blatantly stupid as some of Fox's tricks (using a b-roll of union violence with palm trees in the background when reporting on unions in WI), but they're playing the same game.

It's for entertainment purposes only. Any actual education is incidental.

It's junk food. I'm not telling anyone to avoid Reese's peanut butter cups. That would be stupid. They're delicious. Especially refrigerated or frozen.

Wait, where was I? Oh, right. Reese's are delicious. Just don't eat them for dinner.
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It is always wrong to deceive the public with tendentious editing, no matter who does it, or why. The deliberate attempt to make George Zimmerman look racist at a time of national racial tension, dwarfs anything Fox has done with B-roll. Besides, this isn't about Fox, it's about MSNBC. Fox's crimes do not excuse MSNBC's. But then, you know that, right? Right?
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

amherstblackbear said:
The bottom line is that Romney was comparing private sector innovation to government bureaucracy. The "wow" was not an expression of wonderment at Wawa's ordering system -- it was a wow at the contrast he had just described.

MSNBC clearly spun it as a GHW Bush moment, recalling older Bush's ill-timed "gaffe" with supermarket price scanners back in 1992. MSNBC hasn't been caught doing anything as blatantly stupid as some of Fox's tricks (using a b-roll of union violence with palm trees in the background when reporting on unions in WI), but they're playing the same game.

It's for entertainment purposes only. Any actual education is incidental.

It's junk food. I'm not telling anyone to avoid Reese's peanut butter cups. That would be stupid. They're delicious. Especially refrigerated or frozen.

Wait, where was I? Oh, right. Reese's are delicious. Just don't eat them for dinner.
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Why the heck shouldn't I eat a Reese's when I gosh darn want to?!

BTW, is there a wrong way to eat a Reese's?
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
Why the heck shouldn't I eat a Reese's when I gosh darn want to?!

BTW, is there a wrong way to eat a Reese's?
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You're proud to be an American, where at least you know you're free. Oh, wait, that might offend somebody's culture.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Old Pio said:
It is always wrong to deceive the public with tendentious editing, no matter who does it, or why. The deliberate attempt to make George Zimmerman look racist at a time of national racial tension, dwarfs anything Fox has done with B-roll. Besides, this isn't about Fox, it's about MSNBC. Fox's crimes do not excuse MSNBC's. But then, you know that, right? Right?
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OK, OK, stand down. My earlier post was directed at those who believe that Fox is evil, and MSNBC is good by definition because they aren't Fox. I know that's not you. Believe me. :D

Background: I have this conversation irritatingly often (not surprising, given the crowd I roll with). Sometimes to make the argument it's more effective *not* to go in guns blazing but, rather, to offer some token conciliation. Sometimes rhetoric is just rhetoric.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

amherstblackbear said:
OK, OK, stand down. My earlier post was directed at those who believe that Fox is evil, and MSNBC is good by definition because they aren't Fox. I know that's not you. Believe me. :D

Background: I have this conversation irritatingly often (not surprising, given the crowd I roll with). Sometimes to make the argument it's more effective *not* to go in guns blazing but, rather, to offer some token conciliation. Sometimes rhetoric is just rhetoric.
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Back to Def Con 5. ;) Far too many liberal posters here rely on tu quoque argumentation, especially as regards Fox. They think they're being profound.

More from MSNBC: that lib putz Lawrence O'Donnell evidently thinks he's a physician, putting the knock on Ann Romney's use of dressage as therapy for her MS. Quite apart from the fact that illnesses of candidates' wives ought to be off limits, O'Donnell's "point" was that dressage is very, very expensive. He ought to know, since Jackie Kennedy was an accomplished rider who participated in fox hunts. And daughter Caroline also had a pony named "Macaroni," another inexpensive passtime for kids. Rich Republicans are a problem, rich Democrats, especially their media sympathizers (Michael Moore, Jon S. Liebowitz, Bill Maher, etc) are not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7VjPdZkh5XE
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
While you like slow boring "sports" where they spend 2/3 the time standing around?

Rugby > Soccer > American Football
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You mention boring sports while defending soccer, TF
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
The evidence is pretty clear: most of the time, a government program worsens the condition it is supposed to improve, by taking a temporary situation and making it a permanent problem.
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So go move to Rwanda. I hear it's a libertarian paradise.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Why would anybody in Oakland pay to see the circus, when they can go to a city council meeting for free?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L3gQxAsgVyQ#!

These are apparantly Occupy losers. They remind me of what George Wallace used to say when confronted with foul mouthed demonstrators: "I've got a couple of four letter words for you--w-a-s-h and w-o-r-k".
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
Someone is SO preoccupied by an obsession over the perception of "evil republican" that that someone did not closely read what I said. I said that Sweden USED to have those policies until they realised that it wasn't working.
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No, it's just that you are so delusional you actually believe Sweden used to be a Communist country. It isn't even a Socialist country.

Is Sweden a Socialist country?

Answer:
No. Since about 1935 Sweden has had a social democratic economy, with high, redistributive income tax and general welfare benefits (even when under conservative governments). However, the Swedish economic model, which has been similar to other Scandinavian countries and therefore are called the "Scandinavian model", is not entirely socialistic, since the goal has been to create a welfare state, not a state with collective ownership. It's not a dictatorship either, but the conservatives in Sweden are very moderate if you compare internationally.

Large private-owned companies from Sweden is i.e. IKEA, H&M and Ericsson. Private companies can never be incorporated within a socialist state.

What's more it's one of the most prosperous countries in Europe.
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Just because they aren't pure Capitalists does not mean they are Communists. There are lots of economic and social forms of government that don't fit your tiny worldview where everything is black and white.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Priceless said:
No, it's just that you are so delusional you actually believe Sweden used to be a Communist country. It isn't even a Socialist country.



Just because they aren't pure Capitalists does not mean they are Communists. There are lots of economic and social forms of government that don't fit your tiny worldview where everything is black and white.
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Source? You are either lazy or arrogant. My money's on the latter.
 
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