Div III NCAA Rankings

[ARM]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Teams may be seeded on a regional basis using the selection criteria. However, geographic proximity takes precedence over seeding.

That's a quote from page 13 of the D-III Championships manual for women's ice hockey:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/PreChamps_DIII_W_IceHockey_2014_RevisedLinks2.pdf

 

[spike]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Great idea! In fact, why don't we just not let the West have any auto bids...! And how about that line of thinking for the East Coast at the D1 level, too, since the WCHA seems to win every year. Even further, how about there be an East National Champion and a West National Champion so that everyone can feel good about themselves....! Do you see where I'm going with this, Spike? About the same direction you are with your criteria comment.

Of course I see where you are going. I would agree that if recent East vs West results in DIII tournaments should come into play, I would also agree that East vs West results at DI can also come into play. The only difference is that at the DI level there is quite a bit of inter-region head to head action. So, if the NCAA is looking at things like SOS there is data for them to rely on. At DIII, the only inter-region action in recent years would be an ocassional road trip by a low level West team to play some low level East teams. So, SOS comparisons between ranked East teams and ranked West teams cannot be based on actual data. The only way to compare East vs West at the DIII level amongst ranked teams would be to give some weight to recent tournament results. I thought I was making the point that the criteria are what they are, but year in and year out the results say otherwise.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

So the West gets an extra at-large at Midd's expense. Based on recent East/West results in NCAA QF and SF games, it would appear to me that with all the criteria considered, the 4-4 split comes down to saving $$$?

Also, if I'm reading the brackets correctly, even if the two surviving West teams lose their semifinal games, they would meet in the third place game, guaranteeing the West at least one victory at the FF. When was the last time a West team won a FF game?

Stevens Point beat Amherst in 07 an Gustavus in 06. After that the only team thats really been out there was Gustavus...and they are totally ineffective in the frozen four. Superior and River Falls had a shot as well.

Stevens Point is 3-3 in the Frozen Four (2 wins above and beat Mville in the semis in like '03)
River Falls is 0-4
Superior is 0-2
Gustavus is 2-12

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

To the contrary, in the 7-team format a 5-2 split saved money and a 4-3 split cost money. In the 8-team format a 5-3 split cost money and a 4-4 split saves money. Spending the extra money to allow the East to have the 5-3 split was a good thing. Going 4-4 to save money would then be a bad thing assuming of course that Elmira and Midd should have gotten in. I know that is a leap of faith based on the "criteria", but my point is that every year the West gets beat up in this tournament so at some point shouldn't that be factored in with the "criteria"?

No...thats stupid

Following that logic....half of the NCAA basketball bracket shouldn't make it because they have no chance of winning

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Williams has the 4th ranked SOS and 3rd best win percentage amongst eastern teams. The NESCAC is the toughest conference in Div3. I'd put them ahead of any team out of the west. But that would create travel expense.

Ahem..WIAC

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Williams has an RPI ranking of 15th. Another meaningless ranking to the NCAA. They are not a Top 10 team in the county. I'm not sure they were even in the Top 6 of the published NCAA rankings? D3hockey and uscho are hockey sources, not the best, not the worst.

WIlliams was not in the final ncaa rankings published on March 4th. Tjames is obviously a Williams homer. Williams is the 8 seed. They weren't even in the discussion until Middlebury lost.

Here is another one to ponder. If the Wisco schools had stayed in the NCHA do you think there would have been three teams from the same conference playing this weekend? Just another reward for being bad.

I doubt it because Lake Forest would not of done as well in the NCHA. River Falls, Stevens Point and Superior would have been the top 3 teams in the NCHA But then again, Superior might not have as many losses because they wouldn't have lost to River Falls and Stevens Point as many times as they did.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Not a chance River Falls is the 2 seed over Norwich.

When you look at the comparison criteria...its close.

Wiin % goes to Norwich (.875 to .804)
SOS goes to River Falls (.576 to .565)
Results against Ranked goes to Norwich (.700 to .556)
Last 25% is a tie at 7-0.

Looking at that I'd guess that Norwich is the #2

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

That's a quote from page 13 of the D-III Championships manual for women's ice hockey:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/PreChamps_DIII_W_IceHockey_2014_RevisedLinks2.pdf

It also states that teams from the same conference will not play eachother in the first round. Which means that Stevens Point/River falls and Plattsburgh/Elmira could not play eachother in the first round.

The primary critera includes head to head results and common opponents. Which makes the Middlebury/Elmira decision even more puzzling. Obviously Midd wins head to head, Elmira wins Common Opponents .700 to .545. Maybe they cancel each other out? Looking at the NCAA stat sheet they are tied in the primary criteria 3-3. The secondary criteria don't really come into play except Elmira beat Stevenson. Middlebury has the highest SOS in the country.

 

[nyi19]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

The primary critera includes head to head results and common opponents. Which makes the Middlebury/Elmira decision even more puzzling.

Only because they couldn't figure out how to get "We don't think you should make NCAAs if you lose in your conference quarterfinals" as a criteria without looking like jerks.

 

[Tjames]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

When you look at the comparison criteria...its close.

Wiin % goes to Norwich (.875 to .804)
SOS goes to River Falls (.576 to .565)
Results against Ranked goes to Norwich (.700 to .556)
Last 25% is a tie at 7-0.




Looking at that I'd guess that Norwich is the #2

Norwich and Elmira are obviously the most affected by these mysterious rankings. For the NCAA to try to say these two teams are seeds 3 and 6 is a laugh. Just as big a laugh would be to call Elmira a 7 seed.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Norwich and Elmira are obviously the most affected by these mysterious rankings. For the NCAA to try to say these two teams are seeds 3 and 6 is a laugh. Just as big a laugh would be to call Elmira a 7 seed.

Welcome to NCAA Division III athletics. It is what is and we deal with it. There are eight very good hockey teams that all have a shot to win a national championship over the next nine days. Plattsburgh is certainly the favorite but Elmira has shown they can be beaten. Norwich hasn't matched up well at all against Plattsburgh in their two meetings so far this season, but they are also healthy now and are playing much better hockey than they were in November and early January. Williams has been getting hot at the right time.

As for the Western teams, I haven't had the chance to see any of them play yet this season, but judging from the leaps that Gustavus Adolphus has made over the past couple years, if they were dethroned it would appear that these four teams can all sit at the big kids table too now with the Eastern Elite.

Can't wait to see how things play out!

 

[Tjames]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Welcome to NCAA Division III athletics. It is what is and we deal with it. There are eight very good hockey teams that all have a shot to win a national championship over the next nine days. Plattsburgh is certainly the favorite but Elmira has shown they can be beaten. Norwich hasn't matched up well at all against Plattsburgh in their two meetings so far this season, but they are also healthy now and are playing much better hockey than they were in November and early January. Williams has been getting hot at the right time.

As for the Western teams, I haven't had the chance to see any of them play yet this season, but judging from the leaps that Gustavus Adolphus has made over the past couple years, if they were dethroned it would appear that these four teams can all sit at the big kids table too now with the Eastern Elite.

Can't wait to see how things play out!

I agree. It should be a great weekend of hockey. I'm looking forward to the Norwich,Elmira battle. There is nothing better than watching a game without a clear favorite. It's just that the NCAA reminds a little like an insurance company. Make your payment to us on time every month but when it comes time to honor your claim, they find a loophole to deny you.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Norwich and Elmira are obviously the most affected by these mysterious rankings. For the NCAA to try to say these two teams are seeds 3 and 6 is a laugh. Just as big a laugh would be to call Elmira a 7 seed.

You really need to do some self-educating before you rant. Norwich and Elmira aren't necessarily the 3 and 6 seed.

Norwich is the 2 seed in the East and Elmira is the 3 seed in the East.

There are two things that the NCAA looks at when making this tournament: Geographic Proximity in the first round(travel costs) and avoiding conference matchups in the first round.

With 4 teams in each region making the playoffs the 4 teams in each region are going to play eachother. They aren't going to fly say Elmira to Stevens Point and St Thomas to Norwich. You seem upset that Elmira is playing Norwich in the first round. That is the only possible combination out there since Williams is clearly the lowest seed in the East and Elmira can't play Plattsburgh.

The only "seeds" you can say definitively is 1 Plattsburgh and 4 Stevens Point. My guess is that Norwich is 2 and River Falls is 3. The rest are a crapshoot and irrelevant really.

 

[Tjames]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

You really need to do some self-educating before you rant. Norwich and Elmira aren't necessarily the 3 and 6 seed.

Norwich is the 2 seed in the East and Elmira is the 3 seed in the East.

There are two things that the NCAA looks at when making this tournament: Geographic Proximity in the first round(travel costs) and avoiding conference matchups in the first round.

With 4 teams in each region making the playoffs the 4 teams in each region are going to play eachother. They aren't going to fly say Elmira to Stevens Point and St Thomas to Norwich. You seem upset that Elmira is playing Norwich in the first round. That is the only possible combination out there since Williams is clearly the lowest seed in the East and Elmira can't play Plattsburgh.

The only "seeds" you can say definitively is 1 Plattsburgh and 4 Stevens Point. My guess is that Norwich is 2 and River Falls is 3. The rest are a crapshoot and irrelevant really.

I'm not saying the NCAA is doing anything outside of the rules they have in place. I'm more or less giving my opinion of the process. As someone else said on this forum "welcome to Div3, you may not like but it is what it is". The Trinity mens team is probably in need of some of that education you speak of. I'm sure there not feeling the least bit slighted not getting in after the season they had. I also like the new twist you put on this as well. Calling Elmira a 3 seed in the East. Why don't we just have Regional championships so we can gaurantee a western team in the final.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

I'm not saying the NCAA is doing anything outside of the rules they have in place. I'm more or less giving my opinion of the process. As someone else said on this forum "welcome to Div3, you may not like but it is what it is". The Trinity mens team is probably in need of some of that education you speak of. I'm sure there not feeling the least bit slighted not getting in after the season they had. I also like the new twist you put on this as well. Calling Elmira a 3
seed in the East. Why don't we just have Regional championships so we can gaurantee a western team in the final.

It's not a "new twist" its the way it is. Its the way it always has been. They pick the field and seed the regions.

 

[Tjames]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

It's not a "new twist" its the way it is. Its the way it always has been. They pick the field and seed the regions.

Now I feel like my education has been completed. When you put it like that. "It's the way it is, it's how it always has been".

 

[Tjames]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

I'll say it again. I'm just giving my opinion about the process. The reality is to get to the final your gonna have to play your best, no matter who you play. Plattsburg is going to be a tall order for any team within these 8. I'm sure Elmira is the last team they'll want to see in that game.

 

[spike]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

No...thats stupid

Following that logic....half of the NCAA basketball bracket shouldn't make it because they have no chance of winning

Actually I agree, if the NCAA cut the basketball tournament down to 32 teams there would be no impact on the results since no team seeded 9 or lower has ever won. Of course if they did this then the NCAA would make far less money and they would then cut their support for DIII women's hockey and we don't want them to do that!

 

[Plugger]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Welcome to NCAA Division III athletics. It is what is and we deal with it. There are eight very good hockey teams that all have a shot to win a national championship over the next nine days. Plattsburgh is certainly the favorite but Elmira has shown they can be beaten. Norwich hasn't matched up well at all against Plattsburgh in their two meetings so far this season, but they are also healthy now and are playing much better hockey than they were in November and early January. Williams has been getting hot at the right time.

As for the Western teams, I haven't had the chance to see any of them play yet this season, but judging from the leaps that Gustavus Adolphus has made over the past couple years, if they were dethroned it would appear that these four teams can all sit at the big kids table too now with the Eastern Elite.

Can't wait to see how things play out!

Prez - I agree, and let's not forget last year when Plattsburgh had gone all year without a loss, and twice beat Middlebury (3-1 and 3-2), but Middlebury beat them in the 1st game of the Final 4, ruining the Cardinals terrific season. That can easily happen again this year, but you know Coach Houle has reminded them of that. Goaltending will play a huge part over the next 8 days. Good luck to all of the teams!!

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Div III NCAA Rankings

Interesting tidbit in the article below from the Plattsburgh paper about the Plattsburgh-Williams game yesterday (thanks SeymoreHockey):

http://www.pressrepublican.com/0302_college/x1387867450/Vakos-sends-Cardinals-to-final-four

Apparently Wisconsin Stevens Point was the 5th seed and St Thomas the 6th seed. Assuming that is correct, with Williams and Lake Forest 7 and 8, that means that Elmira was the overall 4 seed.....and the last team selected to the tournament. Given that and WSP's poor showing at home, makes you wonder more if Middlebury should have been in over WSP with a 5-3 Eastern split. And yes, I know the $$$ dictated the split because the 4-4 is way cheaper....