D3 Game Updates 2012-13

[jerrynu26]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Does anyone have any idea what the DIII womens record is for points in a game ? not that individual points are all that important but jusr curious.
Thanks

Game
8—Annie Annunziato, Augsburg vs. Hamline, Nov. 20, 2003 (five goals, three assists);
Andrea Peterson, Gust. Adolphus vs. St. Catherine, Feb. 11, 2005 (two goals, six assists);
Tori Charron, Elmira vs. Chatham, Jan. 29, 2011 (six goals, two assists)

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Thanks. I was curious as ,I was told, Katie Picarello, St. A's, had 3 goals and six assists against Plymouth State on Friday.
I guess she also had three goals against USM on Saturday. All in all a pretty remarkable weekend.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Thanks. I was curious as ,I was told, Katie Picarello, St. A's, had 3 goals and six assists against Plymouth State on Friday.
I guess she also had three goals against USM on Saturday. All in all a pretty remarkable weekend.

Those numbers were at the start of this year. According to the score sheet, she did have 9 points, which would make her the new record holder.

These numbers are all available with a little research.

 

[spwood]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Thanks. I was curious as ,I was told, Katie Picarello, St. A's, had 3 goals and six assists against Plymouth State on Friday.
I guess she also had three goals against USM on Saturday. All in all a pretty remarkable weekend.

St. A is a Div II team, are they? I mean, they play a Div III schedule, but technically they're a Div II team. Does that affect the record you are talking about?

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Cortland loses a playoff slot due solely on how the ECAC West has interpreted their own Policies and Procedures rules for tie breakers. The ruling is currently written as: 1. Comparison of game results between the tied teams (head-to-head); Neumann and Cortland are tied 2. Number of league wins; Neumann and Cortland are tied 3. Comparison of results against common opponents; The only common result for comparison is the goal differential between the common opponents. Cortland faired better vs. 3 common opponents while Neumann faired better vs. 2 common opponents. They are tied with 2 other common opponents. 4. Overall record; Is this overall league play or overall league and non-league play? If it's overall league and non-league, why wouldn't every coach play down to stack their stats? And, I've been informed, that playing non-league games against teams within your league is looked at as not what they are, non-league games but as common opponent games. This is another tie breaking policy that is taken into consideration but not written anywhere. Therefore, following the documented tie breaker policies currently in place, Cortland faired better than Neumann yet somehow they did not get a playoff seed.

I have been informed that the tie breaking policy will be rewritten to be more clear and precise for next year. In the meantime, the ECAC West should not interpret their policy but to enforce it as it is currently written.


9.2 Tiebreakers
Tiebreakers (listed in order of application) will be used to determine Women’s West seeding:

1.Comparison of game results between the tied teams (head-to-head);

2.Number of league wins;

3.Comparison of results against common opponents; and

4.Overall record.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Cortland loses a playoff slot due solely on how the ECAC West has interpreted their own Policies and Procedures rules for tie breakers. The ruling is currently written as: 1. Comparison of game results between the tied teams (head-to-head); Neumann and Cortland are tied 2. Number of league wins; Neumann and Cortland are tied 3. Comparison of results against common opponents; The only common result for comparison is the goal differential between the common opponents. Cortland faired better vs. 3 common opponents while Neumann faired better vs. 2 common opponents. They are tied with 2 other common opponents. 4. Overall record; Is this overall league play or overall league and non-league play? If it's overall league and non-league, why wouldn't every coach play down to stack their stats? And, I've been informed, that playing non-league games against teams within your league is looked at as not what they are, non-league games but as common opponent games. This is another tie breaking policy that is taken into consideration but not written anywhere. Therefore, following the documented tie breaker policies currently in place, Cortland faired better than Neumann yet somehow they did not get a playoff seed.

I have been informed that the tie breaking policy will be rewritten to be more clear and precise for next year. In the meantime, the ECAC West should not interpret their policy but to enforce it as it is currently written.


9.2 Tiebreakers
Tiebreakers (listed in order of application) will be used to determine Women’s West seeding:

1.Comparison of game results between the tied teams (head-to-head);

2.Number of league wins;

3.Comparison of results against common opponents; and

4.Overall record.

I would take comparison of results against common opponnents to include goal differential in those games.

Looking at their schedules they had no truly non-conference common opponents.

In conference
Cortland was outscored 34-46
Neumann outscored 32-41

Cortland loses that comparison already, when you throw in Cortland's non-conference games against Buff State and Utica that makes it worse at 39-55.

I would think that validates the choice of Neumann over Cortland. The NCHA has it more specifically laid out--goal differential amongst all conference games...overall goal differential...but I would think goal differential falls under "comparison of results."

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

I guess what I'm questioning is what are they using as a comparison of game results, comparison being the operative word. They didn't say overall game results nor did they spell it out like they did for tie breaker #1 (head to head). And, if it was as simple as you are saying, total goal differential, why then did it take almost 24 hours for them to come to a decision? When you read their policy, comparison of results against common opponents, doesn't that read as you compare results of one team, vs the other, with the same common opponent? An apples to apples comparison. For example, Newmann vs. Elmira -6; while Cortland vs. Elmira -9. Newmann won that comparison. Then there's Newmann vs. Buffalo +4; while Cortland vs. Buffalo +6. Cortland won that comparison. Using this formula against the 7 common opponents, Cortland faired better in 3 while Newmann in 2. The last two were a dead heat. And I do agree with you that they had no truly non-conference common opponents, so that should also not be a factor.

Wouldn't it be disappointing to learn one team was eliminated due to an out of conference record that has nothing to due with the ECAC West? Cortland should not be penalized for choosing to play their non-league competition within the conference. The way I see it, its about whats going on in the league, not out of the league.

 

[OneTimer]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

It seems obvious Neumann gets the nod because they had 3 more wins in their season totals. Simple enough right there.

 

[spwood]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

I would take comparison of results against common opponnents to include goal differential in those games.

Looking at their schedules they had no truly non-conference common opponents.

In conference
Cortland was outscored 34-46
Neumann outscored 32-41

Cortland loses that comparison already, when you throw in Cortland's non-conference games against Buff State and Utica that makes it worse at 39-55.

I would think that validates the choice of Neumann over Cortland. The NCHA has it more specifically laid out--goal differential amongst all conference games...overall goal differential...but I would think goal differential falls under "comparison of results."

This is how I would have read the tie-breaker rules as well. As a side note, Oswego better watch out: Neumann was only 3-12-1 at home, but 6-2 on the road

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

It seems obvious Neumann gets the nod because they had 3 more wins in their season totals. Simple enough right there.

No, its not obvious or simple enough. Where does it say in the policy that a playoff seed tie breaker would come down to an out of conference record? Amount of games played out of conference along with the level of play is arbitrary. A playoff seed is based upon league play.

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

Since its not spelled out, its all interpretive. You and I interpret it differently.

 

[OneTimer]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

That is a shame then that such issues are not spelled out. It seems like total wins is a valid criteria for a second or third level tie-breaker. Neumann has had a seriously disappointing season and the record reflects where they are but overall they are the much stronger hockey team than Cortland is. They have a legitimate chance to win at least one playoff game although Utica is favored for the obvious reasons.

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

That is a shame then that such issues are not spelled out. It seems like total wins is a valid criteria for a second or third level tie-breaker. Neumann has had a seriously disappointing season and the record reflects where they are but overall they are the much stronger hockey team than Cortland is. They have a legitimate chance to win at least one playoff game although Utica is favored for the obvious reasons.

I appreciate you understanding the situation. I also agree with total wins could be a valid criteria, however, since it was not spelled out it has left room for interpretation. As far as Neumann being stronger than Cortland overall, Newmann chose to play a few weaker competion games out of league while Cortland chose equal or tougher competition. Cortland actually faired better against Utica than Neumann overall. It's just unfortunate that some young ladies do not get a second opportunity to do it again next season and its all due to written policies that are not clear or precise.

 

[OneTimer]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

No team should be a victim of wobbly, hazy rules but the adults in the room such as the league and even the head coaches should have had a thorough knowledge of this long ago and alerted the VIPs to make a change. Hindsight is easy. Often times too many head coaches have an unacceptable shallow knowledge of such league rules and also playing rules.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

I guess what I'm questioning is what are they using as a comparison of game results, comparison being the operative word. They didn't say overall game results nor did they spell it out like they did for tie breaker #1 (head to head). And, if it was as simple as you are saying, total goal differential, why then did it take almost 24 hours for them to come to a decision? When you read their policy, comparison of results against common opponents, doesn't that read as you compare results of one team, vs the other, with the same common opponent? An apples to apples comparison. For example, Newmann vs. Elmira -6; while Cortland vs. Elmira -9. Newmann won that comparison. Then there's Newmann vs. Buffalo +4; while Cortland vs. Buffalo +6. Cortland won that comparison. Using this formula against the 7 common opponents, Cortland faired better in 3 while Newmann in 2. The last two were a dead heat. And I do agree with you that they had no truly non-conference common opponents, so that should also not be a factor.

I've never seen common opponents taken that way. It's either the way the NCAA does it...win/loss results against common opponents(in this case it is a wash) and move on to next comparison or total goal differential between common opponents.

In your example, Neuman wins the comparison against Elmira. Technicially Cortland would also be +4 against Buffalo State, because in the 4 games the played, they outscored them 11-7. Which is a tie. I think you are also giving Cortland the win over Utica 6-3 vs 7-3..Where Cortland is 11-5 over Utica which would give Neumann the win on that comparison.

I'd say your method is faulty in the sense that Cortland's scores against Buff State were 1-1, 2-3, 3-1 and 5-1...in the 5-1 win the Buffalo State goalie was playing in her first game ever...hardly a valid argument to say "because we beat their 2nd/3rd string goalie by a lot, and they beat their 1st string goalie by a little..we are a better team." Overall goal differential will even those "outliers" out a little more.

Either Neumann went ahead because of common opponent goal differential or they went to the 4th tiebreaker which is overall record and Neumann won that easily because they played 3 games against Stephenson.

Regardless its pretty much a moot point...yes it sucks that they didn't make the playoffs...but in all honesty were they really going to make it anywhere once they got there?

 

[OneTimer]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

After reading a fourth time - overall record is plainly clear with zero misunderstanding. Who won more games during the season? Neumann did. Is Stevenson on some sort of expansion team probation that was agreed to upfront before the season started? As far as I know they are not an ACHA club team such as Liberty or Slippery Rock.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

After reading a fourth time - overall record is plainly clear with zero misunderstanding. Who won more games during the season? Neumann did. Is Stevenson on some sort of expansion team probation that was agreed to upfront before the season started? As far as I know they are not an ACHA club team such as Liberty or Slippery Rock.

Stevenson is full fledged Division III.

 

[RightDecision?]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

No team should be a victim of wobbly, hazy rules but the adults in the room such as the league and even the head coaches should have had a thorough knowledge of this long ago and alerted the VIPs to make a change. Hindsight is easy. Often times too many head coaches have an unacceptable shallow knowledge of such league rules and also playing rules.

I agree, I do think the head coaches and league are to blame here, however, the true victims are the innocent players just out doing what they love and trusting the professionals. Whats the fairest way to correct this blunder? Maybe the ECAC West should revisit their decision and compare apples to apples, as written. Or, why couldn't the ECAC West have a head to head playoff game before the preliminary playoff round. Yes, its unconventional but everything about this situation is unconventional. Despite repeating myself, one team is going to be disappointed based on vague policies and procedures. It's just unfortunate that the victims here are the innocent players.

 

[gojackets]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

I agree, I do think the head coaches and league are to blame here, however, the true victims are the innocent players just out doing what they love and trusting the professionals. Whats the fairest way to correct this blunder? Maybe the ECAC West should revisit their decision and compare apples to apples, as written. Or, why couldn't the ECAC West have a head to head playoff game before the preliminary playoff round. Yes, its unconventional but everything about this situation is unconventional. Despite repeating myself, one team is going to be disappointed based on vague policies and procedures. It's just unfortunate that the victims here are the innocent players.

Or they could have beaten Neumann on the ice and settled the matter?

Again, there is nothing really vague about the policies and procedures...really no matter how you interpret it...if you look at the results clearly, Neumann wins the tiebreaker

 

[OneTimer]

Re: D3 Game Updates 2012-13

I misspoke a little earlier. Neumann wins fair and square. No one has been cheated of anything.

Both teams controlled their own destiny and each failed most when they had chances to win in the league.