CCHA teams will join WCHA

[bronconick]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

I kind of thought (and continue to believe) that UMD was the "Oh ****" 6th addition when Notre Dame didn't immediately commit to the NCHC. Announcing a new league without enough teams to qualify for an automatic bid is a good way to look like morons and be at a serious disadvantage in future negotiations with teams.

 

[Jimjamesak]

With most of the larger schools leaving the WCHA, perhaps seating capacity isn't as much of an issue and other improvements are desired more.

Ferris and LSSU will still need to go to 4000 just to keep up with the rest. Right now St. Cloud and UAA would have the largest arenas with the vast majority all over 4000 capacity. Should they not want to upgrade those schools will be immediately on the backfoot. Not to mention it looks bad image wise for the league to have a team in a 2500 seat arena.

 

[moose97]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

With most of the larger schools leaving the WCHA, perhaps seating capacity isn't as much of an issue and other improvements are desired more.

I think the thing there, though, is that, while you certainly can drop the 4,000 requirement, what does that do to the teams that have made the commitment (BSU, SCSU's renovations, the money Tech dropped into other areas, the Norris Center Project) when FSU stops in with their 2500 seats? Also, how does FSU recruit against teams that have newer, nicer rinks? If you allow lower standards on something like rinks, the quality of the league is diminished. It'll be tough enough to compete with the B1G and NCHC for recruits - now you want AHA quality rinks too? Uh, no thanks...

 

[MichFan]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Well, not in the HEA. They did just fine with 9 for a long time. The fact they don't play two game weekend series all the time helps to balance out a potential for an odd-numbered conference.

Point well taken, but HEA is geographically compact. The WCHA and NCHC aren't. You can't realistically be in Fairbanks on Friday and Houghton on Saturday for a game, nor is anyone going to want travel from Colorado Springs to Oxford for one game.

HEA might still be able to swing an odd number with Notre Dame, in which case you could modify my scenario #3 a bit...HEA takes nobody else, and Huntsville to the WCHA.

I still fail to see how UMD is more "big-time" than SCSU, or even BSU

That was always my perception, as an outsider to the WCHA and the Minnesota hockey scene. Now that I look at the numbers...Duluth does have 4 Frozen Fours and 1 national title to none for St. Cloud, but I now see that SCSU has more tournament appearances. In fact, Duluth has made the tournament only 6 times. So Duluth hasn't been consistently good. That point is also well taken.

 

[AMC]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Point well taken, but HEA is geographically compact. The WCHA and NCHC aren't. You can't realistically be in Fairbanks on Friday and Houghton on Saturday for a game, nor is anyone going to want travel from Colorado Springs to Oxford for one game.

Even in HE, if a team has to play 2 games in Orono in a season they play both on the same weekend. There are one off games there, however.

 

[Priceless]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

I'm going to assume that no conference wants an odd number of teams, because that creates scheduling nightmares.

I see three possible alignments:

3. NoDame goes to Hockey East, Hockey East grabs a 12th team from Atlantic Hockey (Connecticut?) or maybe ECAC, Western and Bowling Green to NCHC (8 teams), Huntsville suddenly becomes desirable to both the WCHA and Atlantic Hockey/ECAC (whichever loses a team to Hockey East), since both want to avoid an odd number

HEA has had an odd number before and is more likely to stay at 11 than add a 12th team if Notre Dame comes east. Is there anyone in the AHA or ECAC that is available (Ivy League schools need not apply) and would add anything to the HEA brand? UConn? They're not ready for Hockey East. RPI? Union? I don't see it. Also, the presidents and AD's know (and at BC, York will inform them) that Notre Dame may very well go to the Integer in a few years, which would again leave HEA with 11 teams. Better to stay at 11 until the ND situation is sorted out and add a 12th team later if necessary.

 

[Bill]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Ferris and LSSU will still need to go to 4000 just to keep up with the rest. Right now St. Cloud and UAA would have the largest arenas with the vast majority all over 4000 capacity. Should they not want to upgrade those schools will be immediately on the backfoot. Not to mention it looks bad image wise for the league to have a team in a 2500 seat arena.

Whether 4000 has been set forth as a hard and fast condition for the CCHA schools going to the WCHA I don't know. I tend to doubt it. Obviously Ferris has the smallest rink. Money is very tight for Michigan public universities, so unless they have some wealthy benefactors it would probably be hard for Ferris to get up to 4000. It would be interesting to know for sure what the conditions for joining were set at. Not to take away anything from the remaining WCHA schools that have upgraded or built new arenas, but it isn't going to be the same WCHA as it was. Arena seating capacity may no longer be quite as important as it has been, as long as an arena is otherwise up to standards.

 

[MikeAnderson]

I'm going to assume that no conference wants an odd number of teams, because that creates scheduling nightmares.

Unfair assumption. If that were the case, UAH would be a two-year veteran of the CCHA and would have already accepted an invite from the WCHA (faster than Ferris, I'd wager).

 

[4four4]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

I still fail to see how UMD is more "big-time" than SCSU, or even BSU.

Not that I disagree but UMD has been playing in a dumb far longer than SCSU ever did during their WCHA stay. IMO, if UMD would have been able to build a new rink in 1988 like SCSU I bet UMD's history would have changed. UMD has more potential than SCSU and BSU because are in a bigger population. I bet that is one of the reasons why the new league wanted UMD.

 

[moose97]

UMD has more potential than SCSU and BSU because are in a bigger population. I bet that is one of the reasons why the new league wanted UMD.

Eh, I'll give you Duluth over Bemidji, market size, but St. Cloud? IMHO, 275,000 (Duluth) vs. 200,000 (St. Cloud) is a virtual wash - plus SCSU has proximity to the Twin Cities going for it over UMD. I don't disagree that a rink may have changed things for Duluth had it been built 20 years ago.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Eh, I'll give you Duluth over Bemidji, market size, but St. Cloud? IMHO, 275,000 (Duluth) vs. 200,000 (St. Cloud) is a virtual wash - plus SCSU has proximity to the Twin Cities going for it over UMD. I don't disagree that a rink may have changed things for Duluth had it been built 20 years ago.

Whatever happens there are many of us that hope that the MN Div I schools all remain viable and more consistently compete on a national level. Yeah that will put pressure on UM recruiting but imho that's a good thing. I'd love to see the Gophers 'have to' expand their recruiting base, which if embraced by the coaching staff could actually result in better results because the in-state, 'MN recruting crutch' would be slightly wobbled.

 

[4four4]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Eh, I'll give you Duluth over Bemidji, market size, but St. Cloud? IMHO, 275,000 (Duluth) vs. 200,000 (St. Cloud) is a virtual wash - plus SCSU has proximity to the Twin Cities going for it over UMD. I don't disagree that a rink may have changed things for Duluth had it been built 20 years ago.

2010 census population of 279,771, the Duluth-Superior MSA ranked as the 165th largest metropolitan area in the United States and St. Cloud 182,784. In the eyes of the new league they probably would rather have a University of Minnesota "school" over a state school. That is my hunch.

 

[Pump It Up]

2010 census population of 279,771, the Duluth-Superior MSA ranked as the 165th largest metropolitan area in the United States and St. Cloud 182,784. In the eyes of the new league they probably would rather have a University of Minnesota "school" over a state school. That is my hunch.

Just ask Damien, he'll explain everything.

 

[TigerFan86-87]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Whether 4000 has been set forth as a hard and fast condition for the CCHA schools going to the WCHA I don't know. I tend to doubt it. Obviously Ferris has the smallest rink. Money is very tight for Michigan public universities, so unless they have some wealthy benefactors it would probably be hard for Ferris to get up to 4000. It would be interesting to know for sure what the conditions for joining were set at. Not to take away anything from the remaining WCHA schools that have upgraded or built new arenas, but it isn't going to be the same WCHA as it was. Arena seating capacity may no longer be quite as important as it has been, as long as an arena is otherwise up to standards.

Also to consider... Increasing the arena size at a school like Ferris may help it meet the conference criteria and bring its facilities in line with the other WCHA teams that have recently upgraded. Does it however, guarantee any larger crowds? I honestly know nothing about their fan base. I am just posing the question. Just adding seats doesn't mean much if the new 1500 seats remain empty all season. That issue is something my school is going to be dealing with soon. RIT's current arena only holds ~2000 including standing room (fire capacity is 2100, but that's including the floor). The plans to raise money for a new rink in coming years has raised the debate about how big it should be. Those in charge have said in the neighborhood of 4000 to 6000. Many question whether they can sell out a 4000 seat rink regularly, let alone a 6000 seater. But they also must consider future growth. Right now, they almost certainly could not sell 4k regularly. They give the impression though, that the program is not as big as they'd like it to get down the road. Of course the more it grows, the more local interest they can get from the local community, and the more seats they'll be able to use. In Ferris' case, they are a relatively established program for some time. I imagine (although could be wrong) they're not likely to be growing the program soon. So are there 1500 fans being shut out of FSU games that would come out if there were seats available?

 

[moose97]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Also to consider... Increasing the arena size at a school like Ferris may help it meet the conference criteria and bring its facilities in line with the other WCHA teams that have recently upgraded. Does it however, guarantee any larger crowds? I honestly know nothing about their fan base. I am just posing the question. Just adding seats doesn't mean much if the new 1500 seats remain empty all season. That issue is something my school is going to be dealing with soon. RIT's current arena only holds ~2000 including standing room (fire capacity is 2100, but that's including the floor). The plans to raise money for a new rink in coming years has raised the debate about how big it should be. Those in charge have said in the neighborhood of 4000 to 6000. Many question whether they can sell out a 4000 seat rink regularly, let alone a 6000 seater. But they also must consider future growth. Right now, they almost certainly could not sell 4k regularly. They give the impression though, that the program is not as big as they'd like it to get down the road. Of course the more it grows, the more local interest they can get from the local community, and the more seats they'll be able to use. In Ferris' case, they are a relatively established program for some time. I imagine (although could be wrong) they're not likely to be growing the program soon. So are there 1500 fans being shut out of FSU games that would come out if there were seats available?

This is the exact debate the went on at BSU before last year. Bemidji averaged 2,181 in '09-'10 (the year after the Frozen Four) and 1,975 in '08-'09. Before ~ '06, BSU had never averaged more than ~1,200-1,300. Then, last year in a 4,373 seat state of the art barn? Attendance averaged 3,876... Now, who knows if this is sustainable five years from now with WCHA games vs. FSU and UAF...

Also, I never said that :SSU and FSU needed 4,000 seats - just that it was a hard and fast rule (IMHO, BSU wouldn't have built their rink as big as they did if they didn't have to for the WCHA), at least before the B1G and NCHC, and that it may be one of the things those schools were asked to address.

 

[LSSULaker889294]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Ferris and LSSU will still need to go to 4000 .

LSSU's Taffy Abel Arena already has 4,000 seats.

 

[SCSU Euro]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

This is the exact debate the went on at BSU before last year. Bemidji averaged 2,181 in '09-'10 (the year after the Frozen Four) and 1,975 in '08-'09. Before ~ '06, BSU had never averaged more than ~1,200-1,300. Then, last year in a 4,373 seat state of the art barn? Attendance averaged 3,876... Now, who knows if this is sustainable five years from now with WCHA games vs. FSU and UAF...

Also, I never said that :SSU and FSU needed 4,000 seats - just that it was a hard and fast rule (IMHO, BSU wouldn't have built their rink as big as they did if they didn't have to for the WCHA), at least before the B1G and NCHC, and that it may be one of the things those schools were asked to address.

But its a new WCHA we live in. MN, UW, and UND won't be coming to your building for a conference matchup, nor will their fanbase, so schools shouldn't have to live by the old requirements. It will suck for sure if BSU built a bigger building than they end up needing, but when it was built, they thought they'd be playing with those three. Still, if the Gophers and Sioux still play them on a semi-regular basis, they'd be better off with the seating anyway. I also think that SCSU-BSU could become quite a heated rivalry if they become regulars in the hunt for a WCHA Championship.

 

[MavsFan]

It will suck for sure if BSU built a bigger building than they end up needing,

At least BSU got state funding. Mankato hasn't gotten any, and had to meet the WCHA requirements with all local funding.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

At least BSU got state funding. Mankato hasn't gotten any, and had to meet the WCHA requirements with all local funding.

Lack of community support for the MSUM program hasn't helped their cause.

 

[MavsFan]

Re: CCHA teams will join WCHA

Lack of community support for the MSUM program hasn't helped their cause.

In Jutting's 11 years, he's finished above .500 twice, made the WCHA final five once, and made the NCAA tournament once. The first time it was even possible, he finished in eleventh place. That will contribute to lack of community support.

However, the people of Mankato approved a local-option tax to build and maintain the civic center, so there was support initially.