Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I think the issue is that it seems (or seemed to the NCAA) that the Canadian package was significantly different from financial aid incentives offered to citizens of other countries. The soccer example would be a red flag, regardless of labels if the school gave a different kind of FA package for Brazilians than, say, Austrians.

The bottom line to the NCAA, IMO, wasn't the label or the terms of the grants, but simply that the grants failed to attract a significant number of non-student athletes, giving them appearance (and de-facto effect) of student athlete financial-aid packages. I believe and I think the NCAA believes as well, that it was NOT the intention of the schools to in any-way-shape-or-form to circumvent the NCAA DIII financial aid policies, but rather the unfortunate result of no one, other than the athletic departments, actively marketing the grant programs, and consequently, little to no student participation beyond the student athletes. Was their negligence on anyone part? I don’t think so, I believe the admissions and financial aid offices, in good faith at compliance, did not consider the student’s athletic participation when making their decisions and in good faith did not even track athletic status of those admitted. While the athletic departments were simply using all available resources in recruiting, not really thinking their actions and success would skew the grant programs so much as to create the situation that has foiled all their well intentioned efforts.

That said; it also appears that sometime, around 2006, the NCAA warned them that their programs might be having a lopsided effect. I am not certain if the warning, however, was directed at them specifically and individually, or rather a general advisory to all DIII programs aimed at all "international financial incentive programs". If Geneseo and Buffalo State were given specific warnings in 2006, then someone needs to be held responsible, as clearly something pro-actively should have been done.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The bottom line to the NCAA, IMO, wasn't the label or the terms of the grants, but simply that the grants failed to attract a significant number of non-student athletes, giving them appearance (and de-facto effect) of student athlete financial-aid packages. I believe and I think the NCAA believes as well, that it was NOT the intention of the schools to in any-way-shape-or-form to circumvent the NCAA DIII financial aid policies, but rather the unfortunate result of no one, other than the athletic departments, actively marketing the grant programs, and consequently, little to no student participation beyond the student athletes. Was their negligence on anyone part? I don’t think so, I believe the admissions and financial aid offices, in good faith at compliance, did not consider the student’s athletic participation when making their decisions and in good faith did not even track athletic status of those admitted. While the athletic departments were simply using all available resources in recruiting, not really thinking their actions and success would skew the grant programs so much as to create the situation that has foiled all their well intentioned efforts.

Bingo!

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The bottom line to the NCAA, IMO, wasn't the label or the terms of the grants, but simply that the grants failed to attract a significant number of non-student athletes, giving them appearance (and de-facto effect) of student athlete financial-aid packages. I believe and I think the NCAA believes as well, that it was NOT the intention of the schools to in any-way-shape-or-form to circumvent the NCAA DIII financial aid policies, but rather the unfortunate result of no one, other than the athletic departments, actively marketing the grant programs, and consequently, little to no student participation beyond the student athletes. Was their negligence on anyone part? I don’t think so, I believe the admissions and financial aid offices, in good faith at compliance, did not consider the student’s athletic participation when making their decisions and in good faith did not even track athletic status of those admitted. While the athletic departments were simply using all available resources in recruiting, not really thinking their actions and success would skew the grant programs so much as to create the situation that has foiled all their well intentioned efforts.

Good post.

If this is all true then the situation strikes me as especially unfortunate. I can see the NCAA's reasoning in not wanting a de facto hockey scholarship to exist at a DIII school, but if this scholarship exists specifically for Canadian students, and the problem is simply that there weren't enough non-athlete Canadian students that took the school up on it, then why should the students who did qualify and did take advantage of the scholarship suffer? Because that's what this sanctioning does, effectively.

Are you going to try and tell me that there aren't tons of kids from Ontario who are dying to attend college in the middle of nowhere, and willing to give up their right to legally imbibe just to do so? I'm shocked!

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Good post.

If this is all true then the situation strikes me as especially unfortunate. I can see the NCAA's reasoning in not wanting a de facto hockey scholarship to exist at a DIII school, but if this scholarship exists specifically for Canadian students, and the problem is simply that there weren't enough non-athlete Canadian students that took the school up on it, then why should the students who did qualify and did take advantage of the scholarship suffer? Because that's what this sanctioning does, effectively.

Are you going to try and tell me that there aren't tons of kids from Ontario who are dying to attend college in the middle of nowhere, and willing to give up their right to legally imbibe just to do so? I'm shocked!

Are you not aware that Geneseo has several programs where "Adolescent Certification is Available" and this to help should they want to be with the stars.

In all seriousness, Geneseo recently received this, and this is also true "As the campus is located less than two hours by car from the Canadian border, it made sense to focus on attracting students from that country." & "Out-of-state costs are about $7,000 higher than in-state costs", I am surprised that Geneseo doesn't attract more Canadian students.

This could have scared them away?

The Department of Intercollegiate Athletics and Recreation at Geneseo has demonstrated its commitment to providing alternatives to alcohol consumption in numerous ways. A number of initiatives have been undertaken to promote student attendance at intercollegiate athletic events, including providing transportation to selected away games and developing a pep band to rally the crowd at home games. Through funding from an NCAA Initiatives Grant, “MidKnight Madness,” one of the most highly attended social events at Geneseo was reinstituted. According to Director of Intercollegiate Athletics and Recreation Marilyn Moore, “The NCAA Initiatives Grant enabled us to assemble a group of students to plan activities geared toward increasing student involvement in campus life, and to highlight that there are numerous social activities on campus that are alternatives to those that involve alcohol.”

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Here is an article on Buffalo State from the Niagara Gazette.

The NCAA Division III Committee on Infractions found no indication that anyone within Buffalo State’s athletic department or administration purposely intended to commit any violation.

“Although the Canadian Incentive Grant met all NCAA Division III standards when it was established in 2006, subsequently the NCAA deemed that a disproportionate number of student-athletes versus regular students from Canada took advantage of the program,” Buffalo State athletics director Jerry Boyes said in a statement.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Here is an article on Buffalo State from the Niagara Gazette.

Which is the exact same quote from the AD in my article.

It was their official released statement.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Which is the exact same quote from the AD in my article.

It was their official released statement.

I primarily was looking for any general public release (primarily newspaper), I haven't found anything from Geneseo. (though it might exist).

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Just read the NCAA sanction report. Here's the Cliff Notes:

1. Billions of Canadians live 2 hours from Geneseo, but none of them want to go to college there.
   
2. Geneseo starts Canadian Grants Initiative in 2000 to attract some Canadians. Still no Canadians want to go to college there, except a few who play hockey, cause hey, Geneseo's got a team.
   
3. In 2006 the NCAA tells Geneseo be careful about the number of hockey playing Canadians they've got. Geneseo says Whatever.
   
4. NCAA sanctions Geneseo. Canadians have to stop playing hockey or go home, basically.
   
5. Geneseo cancels Canadian Grants Initiative. Still no Canadians want to go to Geneseo.
   
6. ...
   
7. Profit?

No, in all seriousness, who at the administration ignored the NCAA in 2005-2006? It was all no harm no foul up until that point, the NCAA actually warned them bad things would happen, and still no action was taken. That's inexcusable, IMO.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I primarily was looking for any general public release (primarily newspaper), I haven't found anything from Geneseo. (though it might exist).

Geneseo has no local paper. Rochester Democrat & Chronicle would be considered their local paper.

Considering that the D&C sponsors RIT hockey and still gives virtually no coverage to RIT hockey, I wouldn't hold my breath that anyone there will even know there is a story to pick up, never mind actually write one.

 

[Josh Carey]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Geneseo has no local paper. Rochester Democrat & Chronicle would be considered their local paper.

Considering that the D&C sponsors RIT hockey and still gives virtually no coverage to RIT hockey, I wouldn't hold my breath that anyone there will even know there is a story to pick up, never mind actually write one.

Livingston County News (I think it's called, it's a weekly). Has their headquarters on Main Street in Geneseo.

 

[Josh Carey]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The bottom line to the NCAA...

Good post. Almost nails it except for...

Who at the administration ignored the NCAA in 2005-2006? It was all no harm no foul up until that point, the NCAA actually warned them bad things would happen, and still no action was taken. That's inexcusable, IMO.

... this. I find it very hard to believe even the NCAA would just change the rules/interpretations, not tell anybody, and then overnight assess major violations. The NCAA's press release does seem to indicate the schools were told. And as I suggested earlier in this thread, it also seems negligent to be a university with a financial aid program and - after awards are given - not look at how they were given to see if they were achieving their intended goals.

The fact remains the "Canadian Incentive Grant" was only incentivizing Canadians who were specifically requested to be at the school. Seems like somebody should have picked up on that, despite any NCAA involvement.

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

... this. I find it very hard to believe even the NCAA would just change the rules/interpretations, not tell anybody, and then overnight assess major violations. The NCAA's press release does seem to indicate the schools were told. And as I suggested earlier in this thread, it also seems negligent to be a university with a financial aid program and - after awards are given - not look at how they were given to see if they were achieving their intended goals.

The fact remains the "Canadian Incentive Grant" was only incentivizing Canadians who were specifically requested to be at the school. Seems like somebody should have picked up on that, despite any NCAA involvement.

I seem to remember the NCAA made some announcement about this a few years back, saying that they're going to look at things exactly the way that this Geneseo / Buff State thing has played out.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Livingston County News (I think it's called, it's a weekly). Has their headquarters on Main Street in Geneseo.

That doesn't count...

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The NCAA's press release does seem to indicate the schools were told. And as I suggested earlier in this thread, it also seems negligent to be a university with a financial aid program and - after awards are given - not look at how they were given to see if they were achieving their intended goals.

Right. Something about all of this just isn't adding up. The NCAA claims that the schools were warned against creating the appearance of an athletic scholarship in 2005-2006, and yet we can see clearly from the report that nothing was done to fix the situation. The school didn't even go through the charade of fixing the numbers!

So what happened then in the intervening four years? When the NCAA communicates with schools, they don't talk to some stooge in admissions or financial aid. They take it up with the conferences and the athletics departments. Maybe Jason Lammers got a strongly worded letter from the NCAA, but was too busy with visions of Buckeyes running through his head that he tossed it in the garbage? Maybe the athletics department thought the NCAA didn't have any teeth or wouldn't sanction SUNY Geneseo? That is both a stupid mentality, and a cheating one.

Crap, the more I think about this the more validity I see behind the theory of self-imposed sanctions to protect those two conference championship banners. Maybe I'm just paranoid in the morning?

 

[pierre maguire]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Don't think for a second that this is limited to Genny and Buff State and the SUNYAC, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if more heads were about to roll! If I'm a D3 school in the ECAC W or any other program that's loaded with Canadians (i.e Adrian) I'm very nervous that the NCAA will come a knocking!

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Don't think for a second that this is limited to Genny and Buff State and the SUNYAC, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if more heads were about to roll! If I'm a D3 school in the ECAC W or any other program that's loaded with Canadians (i.e Adrian) I'm very nervous that the NCAA will come a knocking!

From the sounds of what has been said on here and by Russell etc...It sounds like this indeed correct that this is possibly the tip of the ice berg.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

From the sounds of what has been said on here and by Russell etc...It sounds like this indeed correct that this is possibly the tip of the ice berg.

Whoooossshhhhhhhh.........that is the sound of non-athlete Canadian enrollment at D3 schools increasing 8000% (save Geneseo and Buff St.)!

 

[westscout]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Out West I would look at the NCHA, St. Norbert, Superior, CSS to start. I would also stress Adian College, however, Adrian has far fewer Canadian players that CSS and St. Norbert. I am not sure about out East, but I have heard that Norwich tends to get a few Canadian hockey players/ students as well.

This will be very interesting to see how things shake out. The balance of power could change a bit in the near future. Or maybe, the NCAA will not do anything more in fear of disturbing the classic power houses of D-3 hockey.

Westcout

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

This will be very interesting to see how things shake out. The balance of power could change a bit in the near future. Or maybe, the NCAA will not do anything more in fear of disturbing the classic power houses of D-3 hockey.

I doubt the NCAA gives a **** about the classic powerhouses of D3 hockey. They've vacated national championships and Final Four appearances before in sports much more popular than hockey.

My guess is there are more than a few coaches and ADs in D3 hockey that are anxious if the NCAA is going to be pursuing this. It just looks like Geneseo and Buff State did an especially terrible job covering their tracks to be caught first.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Don't think for a second that this is limited to Genny and Buff State and the SUNYAC, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if more heads were about to roll! If I'm a D3 school in the ECAC W or any other program that's loaded with Canadians (i.e Adrian) I'm very nervous that the NCAA will come a knocking!

Anyone who has kept up with this entire thread and my article on USCHO already knows this.