Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Does the ACHA have anything to do wtih the NCAA?

NO!

So, who cares concerning this discusssion? Leave it up to the ACHA to be concerned with how they regulate their members. The NCAA doesn't give a darn about ACHA teams.

I was specifically referring to DIII hockey schools that also have an ACHA team. It seems to me that, unless I'm reading the Geneseo policy wrong, the NCAA sanctioning one of these schools for violating NCAA rules would have an adverse effect on ACHA student-athletes, again particularly in a school like Adrian where the Athletics Dept administers the ACHA teams, so it is essentially a "varsity" sport for them.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I'm not thinking that is the message the "school" was sending, but rather a lack of anyone other than the Athletic Department (AD) promoting the program. I also believe it IS the role of the AD to promote their institutions in the best possible light, including an obligation to inform all perspective students of ALL available programs and incentives. IMO, the primary failure of the programs was a lack of appropriate marketing to the general target base (i.e. ALL Canadian Students), this IMO is evidence of administrative negligence, and administrative guidance starts at the top. Programs with the clear potential to produce undesired results (i.e. creation of a de-facto Canadian athletic scholarship program) need to have be created and administered with pro-active safeguards in place, for this not to have been done, is IMO a sign of blatant incompetence on the part of the program creators/administrators and not on the part of the AD’s – which should have enough on their plate already.

I agree it is the administration's own fault that the scholarship 'became' (I use that term lightly) a de facto athletic scholarship. The proportion of student-athletes to total students who received this incentive was no different when it was created in 2001 through til 2005. During that time the NCAA did not have a problem with it, and I'm pretty sure that the school/athletic program checked with the NCAA to make sure the CSI was onside when it was first created and granted to an athlete.

What is confusing or unusual is that somewhere along the line, the NCAA came along and said, "This is an athletic-scholarship." Okay, so that's the ruling. By all accounts it does look like a de facto athletic scholarship. I can see that. What changed for this to all of a sudden become an athletic scholarship in the eyes of the NCAA?

As for the Intl. Student Office not giving out aid to intl. student-athletes, why should athletes now be alienated because of this situation? What I think is silly is that the international student office is now shying away from any scholarship that may encompass student-athletes. Are they afraid to have a 'general' scholarship for all international students because of this? They don't have to punish all the international students.

What I see as frustrating from a Geneseo supporter perspective is that the hockey program used to be a joke. Brian Hills came in and gave it some credibility through winning the 2005 and (de facto!) 2006 championships, filled the stands, and got the team involved in the community, which in turn, made the school look good. The school, it appears, has not done much to support the hockey team or CSI hockey players through this process.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

And if it is, say, St. Norbert, Adrian, Babson, Norwich, St. Olaf, St. Thomas, Westfield State, <strike>St. Anselm</strike>, <strike>Cortland</strike> or <strike>Oswego</strike>

You forgot one...

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I was specifically referring to DIII hockey schools that also have an ACHA team. It seems to me that, unless I'm reading the Geneseo policy wrong, the NCAA sanctioning one of these schools for violating NCAA rules would have an adverse effect on ACHA student-athletes, again particularly in a school like Adrian where the Athletics Dept administers the ACHA teams, so it is essentially a "varsity" sport for them.

It doesn't matter who administers it.

As long as those players on the ACHA team aren't playing on an NCAA regulated team, the NCAA DOES NOT GIVE A FLYING HOOT about them. The NCAA has no jurisdiction whatsoever over that ACHA team.

Potsdam has an equestrian team adminstered by the athletics department. The NCAA isn't going to care one iota about any of the members on that equestrian team.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What is confusing or unusual is that somewhere along the line, the NCAA came along and said, "This is an athletic-scholarship." Okay, so that's the ruling. By all accounts it does look like a de facto athletic scholarship. I can see that. What changed for this to all of a sudden become an athletic scholarship in the eyes of the NCAA?

I have a better question before yours gets asked. Why didn't the universities in question clear this by the NCAA in the first place? And if they did, then your question is completely valid.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What is confusing or unusual is that somewhere along the line, the NCAA came along and said, "This is an athletic-scholarship." Okay, so that's the ruling. By all accounts it does look like a de facto athletic scholarship. I can see that. What changed for this to all of a sudden become an athletic scholarship in the eyes of the NCAA?

I don't think there was anything wrong with the CIG in theory. Its just that in practice the CIG represented a substantial amount of aid given out by the school and a disproportionate amount of it went to athletes. All of it, in some years.

The NCAA report says that Geneseo was notified about this in 2005-2006, the school "acknowledged" the problem, and vowed to fix it. Who "acknowledged" the problem and the attempts made at fixing it are unclear.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I have a better question before yours gets asked. Why didn't the universities in question clear this by the NCAA in the first place? And if they did, then your question is completely valid.

Althought I can't speak to fact, I am almost 100% certain they cleared or checked with the NCAA or followed the appropriate channels to see if the CIG was legit when it was created.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Althought I can't speak to fact, I am almost 100% certain they cleared or checked with the NCAA or followed the appropriate channels to see if the CIG was legit when it was created.

I would be absolutely shocked if they hadn't. Someone somewhere along the line should have had an eye on this even before the NCAA said something in 2005-2006.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

It doesn't matter who administers it.

As long as those players on the ACHA team aren't playing on an NCAA regulated team, the NCAA DOES NOT GIVE A FLYING HOOT about them. The NCAA has no jurisdiction whatsoever over that ACHA team.

Potsdam has an equestrian team adminstered by the athletics department. The NCAA isn't going to care one iota about any of the members on that equestrian team.

True, that said, the ACHA, which for the most part adheres to NCAA rules, could also seek penalties/consequences of their own.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I don't think there was anything wrong with the CIG in theory. Its just that in practice the CIG represented a substantial amount of aid given out by the school and a disproportionate amount of it went to athletes. All of it, in some years.

The NCAA report says that Geneseo was notified about this in 2005-2006, the school "acknowledged" the problem, and vowed to fix it. Who "acknowledged" the problem and the attempts made at fixing it are unclear.

But why then would the NCAA come after 5 years and say there was a problem? Why wasn't there a problem in any of the previous 5 years?

I agree, they did not do enough to fix it when it was brought to their attention in 2005/06.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

True, that said, the ACHA, which for the most part adheres to NCAA rules, could also seek penalties/consequences of their own.

Absolutely! But the point some people are missing is whatever happens on the ACHA teams will have no bearing whatsoever on any NCAA investigation.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I would be absolutely shocked if they hadn't. Someone somewhere along the line should have had an eye on this even before the NCAA said something in 2005-2006.

That's true, and I believe the school did have their eye on it before '05/06. Maybe they did not follow up on it, or keep a consistent watch over it, or maybe they just became complacent.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But why then would the NCAA come after 5 years and say there was a problem? Why wasn't there a problem in any of the previous 5 years?

I agree, they did not do enough to fix it when it was brought to their attention in 2005/06.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm probably speaking completely out of my *** here, but I suspect that somewhere along the way they were trending towards a violation before the NCAA notified them in 2005-2006. The schools in question probably should have been aware of the trend.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But why then would the NCAA come after 5 years and say there was a problem? Why wasn't there a problem in any of the previous 5 years?

It says it right in my original article -- they looked at the numbers differently.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

If you haven't figured it out by now, I probably speaking completely out of my *** here, but I suspect that somewhere along the way they were trending towards a violation before the NCAA notified them in 2005-2006. The schools in question probably should have been aware of the trend.

What I'm trying to figure out is where along the line should they have known they were trending towards a violation before '05/06? I can say with great certainty that the proportions of athletes who received the CIS to those who were not athletes has probably not deviated more than 5-10% since it was first granted. And I would guess that number to be somewhere in the 90%-100% range.

 

[mazile]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Thinking out of the box and fully aware this will never happen, but . . .

For many of these DIII schools, hockey is the sport which attracts the most interest. What if the power conferences in DIII hockey said, let's get out from the NCAA in this sport, set up rules allowing for "grants" or de-facto scholarships for our hockey program, then approached the AAU or ACHA to govern the sport under rules they set up. It would be a fair way to even the playing field and do-away with everyone trying to appear they're just interested in the "cultural enhancements" provided by Canadians in attendance. Ultimately ending the CIG charade would be a cost savings to schools who inflate Canadian enrollment to disguise its intended purpose.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What I'm trying to figure out is where along the line should they have known they were trending towards a violation before '05/06? I can say with great certainty that the proportions of athletes who received the CIS to those who were not athletes has probably not deviated more than 5-10% since it was first granted. And I would guess that number to be somewhere in the 90%-100% range.

That I don't know, but perhaps they were in trouble from the get-go in the way they handled things after they got initial approval from the NCAA.

Just guessing here...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I have a better question before yours gets asked. Why didn't the universities in question clear this by the NCAA in the first place? And if they did, then your question is completely valid.

Maybe they did. Remember last year NEC flap about who in the NCAA said what about a player who (as it turned out) had about -2 years of eligibility remaining.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I would be absolutely shocked if they hadn't. Someone somewhere along the line should have had an eye on this even before the NCAA said something in 2005-2006.

I see no one claiming that the program wasn't legitimate as "created", the problem is it wasn't implemented in a legitimate fashion - i.e. it attracted few (when it attracted any) non-athletes - my suspicion is that those non-athletes it did "attract" most likely heard of its existence through word of mouth from people familiar with athletes that were recruited. The creators created a legitimate product but failed to install safeguards that would insure it was utilized legitimately - that is without regard - one way or the other - of athletic participation, and consequently, they ended up with a de facto athletic scholarship, as the only ones to successfully promote it was the athletic departments.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

It says it right in my original article -- they looked at the numbers differently.

That seems to be the crux in all of this. What is it that made them change their minds? It was okay before, but now it's not.