Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[logger44444]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Does the CIG include board? If so, the value of housing almost doubles. Geneseo quotes room and board to be $9,550 per year. (They quote out of state tuition and fees as $14,195 per year.)

Board is not included!!!

Out-of-State Tuition, Fees and Board are roughly $18K per year. So if the kids were attending for reasons other than hockey (as Coach Schultz points out), then they should be back next year and willing to pay roughly $24K.

I believe most Canadian players will be searching for a better offer! In Canada, $24K will get them at least 2 years, not 1!

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Board is not included!!!

Out-of-State Tuition, Fees and Board are roughly $18K per year. So if the kids were attending for reasons other than hockey (as Coach Schultz points out), then they should be back next year and willing to pay roughly $24K.

I believe most Canadian players will be searching for a better offer! In Canada, $24K will get them at least 2 years, not 1!

Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but I believe the NCAA report says CIG at Geneseo was free room and board and in-state tuition (tuition equivalent to what a New York State resident would pay). That's how I remember it from my days at Geneseo, also.

The institution made a concerted effort to increase enrollment of international students when it created an International Services Department in 1999. As the campus is located less than two hours by car from the Canadian border, it made sense to focus on attracting students from that country. The Canadian Student Initiative Grants were designed for this purpose. The grants, which were first awarded in 2001, provided a room scholarship if the student lived on campus, and they also reduced tuition to the level paid by in-state residents.

Perhaps room and board wasn't free under the package, but the report doesn't specify the amount that the "room scholarship" covered.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Maybe I am interpreting it wrong, but I believe the NCAA report says CIG at Geneseo was free room and board and in-state tuition (tuition equivalent to what a New York State resident would pay). That's how I remember it from my days at Geneseo, also.



Perhaps room and board wasn't free under the package, but the report doesn't specify the amount that the "room scholarship" covered.

I believe the CIG at Geneseo essentially worked out to be the equivalent of in-state tuition and included free room. Board was not included. In fact, there was a time when despite the 'free room' incentive, a few of the Canadian hockey players paid their own 'room' and lived off-campus (the 'free room' incentive stipulated living on campus).

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Morrisville is Eligible

Says so here, too.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Geneseo's student newspaper, The Lamron, has an excellent and lengthy article on this out today. Nothing really new in terms of news, but a lot of player, former player, coach, and administrative perspectives on this story.

Read it here: http://media.www.thelamron.com/medi...Knights.Hit.With.Postseason.Ban-3865194.shtml

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Geneseo's student newspaper, The Lamron, has an excellent and lengthy article on this out today. Nothing really new in terms of news, but a lot of player, former player, coach, and administrative perspectives on this story.

Read it here: http://media.www.thelamron.com/medi...Knights.Hit.With.Postseason.Ban-3865194.shtml

I find this particularly interesting:

According to Geneseo's international admissions Web site, a non-need-based International Student Scholarship still exists in the CSI's absence. The site explicitly states, however, that international students competing in intercollegiate athletics are ineligible to receive scholarship support, "in accordance with NCAA and Geneseo guidelines."

So, they are still offering International aid, but if you are an athlete you are not allowed to receive it?

Is that not the same reason they got in trouble in the first place, except in reverse?

It seems to me that offering aid to International students but not allowing them to accept it if they play sports is discrimination through and through, just as it would be if they only offered it to athletes.

This just smells of something awful.

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Geneseo's student newspaper, The Lamron, has an excellent and lengthy article on this out today. Nothing really new in terms of news, but a lot of player, former player, coach, and administrative perspectives on this story.

Read it here: http://media.www.thelamron.com/medi...Knights.Hit.With.Postseason.Ban-3865194.shtml

The discussion in the article about the tennis player really hits home the gravity of the sanctions on the student-athletes. The message is "quit participating in sports or your team/program will suffer the consequences."

Almost seems that the NCAA deflects the responsibility of the sanctions onto the student-athletes.

I can't help but feel for the tennis player and the Canadian hockey players. Whether it was the NCAA's intention or not, the non-Canadian student-athletes will most likely blame the Canadian student-athletes for ruining their respective seasons, despite the fact that the Canadians had no control over what happened.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I can't help but feel for the tennis player and the Canadian hockey players. Whether it was the NCAA's intention or not, the non-Canadian student-athletes will most likely blame the Canadian student-athletes for ruining their respective seasons, despite the fact that the Canadians had no control over what happened.

Buffalo State has one canadian player on its women's lacrosse team that faces the same decision...

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I find this particularly interesting:



So, they are still offering International aid, but if you are an athlete you are not allowed to receive it?

Is that not the same reason they got in trouble in the first place, except in reverse?

It seems to me that offering aid to International students but not allowing them to accept it if they play sports is discrimination through and through, just as it would be if they only offered it to athletes.

This just smells of something awful.

I agree 100%. Here's my take on the message the school is sending: "We encourage international diversity through financial-aid packages, but only if you don't want to add value to your college experience through participation in any of the athletic programs."

 

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Buffalo State has one canadian player on its women's lacrosse team that faces the same decision...

Yeah, that's also very unfortunate.

I think the tennis situation is a bit different because, in most respects, tennis is an individual sport. Essentially, the Canadian tennis player could affect another individual's matches/success without even being on the same court.

 

[Ozz]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I agree 100%. Here's my take on the message the school is sending: "We encourage international diversity through financial-aid packages, but only if you don't want to add value to your college experience through participation in any of the athletic programs."

Here is a different perspective...

Let's say you are a student at Geneseo from China that does not play a sport at all. Why should my financial aid package be affected because the school messed up and gave too many Canadiens hockey players this grant? How would that be fair to me if they took it away from me?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I find this particularly interesting:



So, they are still offering International aid, but if you are an athlete you are not allowed to receive it?

Is that not the same reason they got in trouble in the first place, except in reverse?

It seems to me that offering aid to International students but not allowing them to accept it if they play sports is discrimination through and through, just as it would be if they only offered it to athletes.

This just smells of something awful.

You're missing a key point here -- this is not the NCAA's concern.

Their only concern is that a school complies with the NCAA regulations. Now Geneseo does with the above ruling.

If Geneseo is breaking some other regulation or law outside of the NCAA, it's Geneseo's problem. Not the NCAA's.

Another point -- it is not discriminatory. Not by any federal or state laws. Nothing protects the rights of an athlete or non-athlete. Just like I can refuse to hire someone because they have too many piercings (our corporate lawyer told us this). Discrimination laws only protects certain groups of people. That's it. Everyone else claiming discrimination is SOL.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Here is a different perspective...

Let's say you are a student at Geneseo from China that does not play a sport at all. Why should my financial aid package be affected because the school messed up and gave too many Canadiens hockey players this grant? How would that be fair to me if they took it away from me?

But they are not taking it away from a non-athlete foreigner.

So, this perspective makes no sense at all.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I agree 100%. Here's my take on the message the school is sending: "We encourage international diversity through financial-aid packages, but only if you don't want to add value to your college experience through participation in any of the athletic programs."

I'm not thinking that is the message the "school" was sending, but rather a lack of anyone other than the Athletic Department (AD) promoting the program. I also believe it IS the role of the AD to promote their institutions in the best possible light, including an obligation to inform all perspective students of ALL available programs and incentives. IMO, the primary failure of the programs was a lack of appropriate marketing to the general target base (i.e. ALL Canadian Students), this IMO is evidence of administrative negligence, and administrative guidance starts at the top. Programs with the clear potential to produce undesired results (i.e. creation of a de-facto Canadian athletic scholarship program) need to have be created and administered with pro-active safeguards in place, for this not to have been done, is IMO a sign of blatant incompetence on the part of the program creators/administrators and not on the part of the AD’s – which should have enough on their plate already.

 

[Ozz]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But they are not taking it away from a non-athlete foreigner.

So, this perspective makes no sense at all.

I understand that they are not taking the aid away from a non-athlete foreigner. My point was more in response to others saying that its discrimination to the athletes that non-athletes can keep the aid that athletes cannot. Certainly athletes can't keep the aid because the NCAA has deemed it a defacto scholarship, but certainly they can't take away the aid to all international students because it would be unfair to the student in my hypothetical situation. So the only answer is the one that has been done; athletes lose the aid, but non-athletes keep the aid.

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

You're missing a key point here -- this is not the NCAA's concern.

Their only concern is that a school complies with the NCAA regulations. Now Geneseo does with the above ruling.

If Geneseo is breaking some other regulation or law outside of the NCAA, it's Geneseo's problem. Not the NCAA's.

Another point -- it is not discriminatory. Not by any federal or state laws. Nothing protects the rights of an athlete or non-athlete. Just like I can refuse to hire someone because they have too many piercings (our corporate lawyer told us this). Discrimination laws only protects certain groups of people. That's it. Everyone else claiming discrimination is SOL.

I realize the NCAA is not concerned with what is done with non-athlete foreigners. My issue is with what Geneseo is doing. They are eliminating the CSI program, which I am fine with. However it seems from their website that there is a completely separate International student aid program. In addition to taking away the CSI grants to athletes, "and rightfully so, not that they had a choice", they are now saying you can't even receive aid under a program that is available to all international students, not just Canadians.

Unless I am missing something with the NCAA ruling, the problem was with the CSI program which is only available to Canadians. If the school has a program available to ALL International students, regardless of the country they are from, then what would be the issue?

That said, if Geneseo is going to continue to refuse aid to Canadian athletes the SUNYAC just got that much weaker of a conference for years to come.

Schultz can say all he wants, if he truly believes this will not effect recruiting he is living in a fairy tale world.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But they are not taking it away from a non-athlete foreigner.

So, this perspective makes no sense at all.

What if I am a Chinese student at Geneseo who plays NCAA table tennis? (I know it doesn't exist, this is just hypothetical)

Or, from another perspective: What if I am a Canadian Student who wants to play ACHA hockey? Does this affect me? I know Geneseo doesn't have an ACHA team (I just checked ), but if other schools are under investigation with all of this junk, some other schools may end up making this same drastic ruling. And if it is, say, St. Norbert, Adrian, Babson, Norwich, St. Olaf, St. Thomas, Westfield State, <strike>St. Anselm</strike>, <strike>Cortland</strike> or <strike>Oswego</strike (the DIII schools with M1, M2, or M3 teams that I noticed by quickly scanning the school lists), what would happen to their club teams? Particularly in a school like Adrian, where all of their ACHA teams are administered by the Athletics Dept.?

EDIT: Crossed out the SUNYs, because I know you already ruled them out as the schools under investigation, and St. Anselm because they can't be sanctioned for violating DIII regs, since they aren't DIII.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Unless I am missing something with the NCAA ruling, the problem was with the CSI program which is only available to Canadians. If the school has a program available to ALL International students, regardless of the country they are from, then what would be the issue?

We already went through this many pages ago in this thread and in my article.

If the NCAA perceives there are de facto athletic scholarships, then it is not allowed. It's really as simple as that.

That said, if Geneseo is going to continue to refuse aid to Canadian athletes the SUNYAC just got that much weaker of a conference for years to come.

Ergo Emery's quote in my column.

But, this will not stop just at the SUNYAC from what I'm hearing.

Schultz can say all he wants, if he truly believes this will not effect recruiting he is living in a fairy tale world.

What is he supposed to say? We're going to suck, so don't even bother coming here?

Listen to what the Toyota CEO is saying now. You have to put a postive spin on the situation.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What if I am a Chinese student at Geneseo who plays NCAA table tennis? (I know it doesn't exist, this is just hypothetical)

One more time -- there is no law that protects athletes from being discriminated against versus non-athletes.

Or, from another perspective: What if I am a Canadian Student who wants to play ACHA hockey? Does this affect me?

Does the ACHA have anything to do wtih the NCAA?

NO!

So, who cares concerning this discusssion? Leave it up to the ACHA to be concerned with how they regulate their members. The NCAA doesn't give a darn about ACHA teams.

if other schools are under investigation with all of this junk, some other schools may end up making this same drastic ruling.

That's true as I've been saying for the past week. But it would be a ruling they would have to make in order to stay compliant with the NCAA.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Unless I am missing something with the NCAA ruling, the problem was with the CSI program which is only available to Canadians. If the school has a program available to ALL International students, regardless of the country they are from, then what would be the issue?

From what I gather its not the aid that was illicit, but the fact that athletes received a proportion of it far in excess of the general student body.

Geneseo is going to be under probation for two years, so that probably means very limited aid or no aid for athletes as long as the NCAA is auditing them, just to have their ducks in order. After the probationary period, who knows. This ordeal might have spooked the AD enough that they never even approach what would be a permissible amount of aid to foreign athletes ever again.

That said, if Geneseo is going to continue to refuse aid to Canadian athletes the SUNYAC just got that much weaker of a conference for years to come.

True statement. There will probably be ripple effects felt by the other SUNYAC programs who aren't Geneseo or Buff State as well.