Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Russell, based on your understanding of the policy, what would be your opinion about the following school's numbers. *Note, these number were pulled from either the college's own website or www.collegedata.com if the college's site did not provide the information.

College A
Total enrollment: 7,971
International Students: 1.1% from 12 countries, or 88 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 31
35.2% of the International student body plays hockey.

College B
Total Enrollment: 5,736
International Students: 6.9% from 50 countries or 395 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 25
6.3% of the International student body plays hockey.

College C
Total Enrollment: 1,387
International Students: 10% from 31 countries or 139 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 24
17.2% of the International student body plays hockey.

College D
Total Enrollment: 1,469
International Students: 4% from 3 countries or 59 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 26
44% of the International student body plays hockey.

Now, I realize there is certain information missing here, such as how many of these students are accepting financial aid, that obviously is not found on the web, so it is merely speculation. That said, it is interesting to see how it breaks down. If we were to go through each and every D-III hockey school I am curious to know what the norm would look like.

Good stuff Matt...the first three were easy. The fourth one gave me a little bit of trouble ...Very interesting indeed.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

A superior recruiting advantage, combined with a solid coach, should lead to success on the ice. The fact we can establish Geneseo had a recruiting advantage, seems to suggest Schultz either isn't a very good recruiter, or isn't a very good coach. And that conclusion raises questions if he'll be able to bring the program back to prominance after this latest setback and being forced to entice players on the same playing field as all other schools operate.

I hate to say it, but it should be quite clear by now that Coach Schultz can't coach his way out of a paper bag. The talent he's been able to put on the ice and the results he's gotten have been simply disappointing, no matter how you look at it.

Through discussions with people in the Athletics department the two years I was at Geneseo overlapping Schultzy's tenure, I know that they've always liked him because he is a good mentor and he continues to produce some solid young men out of the hockey program. At a program like Geneseo that is paramount and in perfect fitting with the administration's mission. Geneseo isn't and will never be Kansas or Memphis, and having an Xs and Os, while certainly nice, will never be as important as having a good guy and a safe pick behind the bench.

With that being said, I am unclear to the extent this is Schultz's "fault," and it will be interesting to see the fallout from these infractions. Recruiting violations at SUNY Geneseo, under Coach Schultz, is something I never thought I would see, and as an alumni I am honestly very disappointed by.

You are correct that there is no tradition of winning with the program anymore, and this will only make things more difficult in upcoming seasons. Frankly, winning will never happen again until there is a coach who knows how to get out of his own way behind the bench.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Russell, based on your understanding of the policy, what would be your opinion about the following school's numbers. *Note, these number were pulled from either the college's own website or www.collegedata.com if the college's site did not provide the information.

College A
Total enrollment: 7,971
International Students: 1.1% from 12 countries, or 88 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 31
35.2% of the International student body plays hockey.

College B
Total Enrollment: 5,736
International Students: 6.9% from 50 countries or 395 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 25
6.3% of the International student body plays hockey.

College C
Total Enrollment: 1,387
International Students: 10% from 31 countries or 139 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 24
17.2% of the International student body plays hockey.

College D
Total Enrollment: 1,469
International Students: 4% from 3 countries or 59 students.
Number of Canadian hockey players (men and women): 26
44% of the International student body plays hockey.

Now, I realize there is certain information missing here, such as how many of these students are accepting financial aid, that obviously is not found on the web, so it is merely speculation. That said, it is interesting to see how it breaks down. If we were to go through each and every D-III hockey school I am curious to know what the norm would look like.

I won't comment at all on this for one reason and one reason only -- I have no idea what the NCAA did when looking at these numbers.

Another thing, this was a case of CANADIAN numbers only. Not international numbers.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I won't comment at all on this for one reason and one reason only -- I have no idea what the NCAA did when looking at these numbers.

The question is what percentage of the hockey players got Candadian incentive grants. That would be an issue

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

With that being said, I am unclear to the extent this is Schultz's "fault," and it will be interesting to see the fallout from these infractions. Recruiting violations at SUNY Geneseo, under Coach Schultz, is something I never thought I would see, and as an alumni I am honestly very disappointed by.

Your opinion of Schultz is certainly your opinion as a fan. That's fine.

However, this paragraph is completey untrue. None of the coaches committed a violation. NONE. That needs to be understood very clearly.

Remember, this isn't just hockey. Buffalo State's women's lacrosse team is in the same boat.

This was a violation the school as a whole stumbled into. Maybe they weren't vigilant enough to stay atop of a possible infraction, and that can be argued anyway you want.

But the coaches recruited by the rules laid out by these grant aid programs which the school thought was allowed by the NCAA. No rules or processes were circumvented in the recruiting process itself. No lies were given to the recruits. No illegal benefits were given to the recruits. Everyone THOUGHT they were doing the right thing.

The NCAA determined that too many of these grants went to athletes, and thus determined they were de facto athletic scholarships. A determinated which before 2006 they would not have made.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The question is what percentage of the hockey players got Candadian incentive grants. That would be an issue

But we don't know what percentage tripped the flag. And then we don't know what percentage the NCAA didn't allow the schools to use as a not guilty plea.

That's why I won't speculate on any numbers someone provides me. I'm not the NCAA and I sure as heck won't pretend to be.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Boy, I can't wait till it's time to leave for Oswego and watch some actual hockey!!!!

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The question is what percentage of the hockey players got Candadian incentive grants. That would be an issue

What a second -- rereading your note, this is not the question.

The question, and I thought I wrote this clearly in the updated version of my article, is the ratio of Canadian athletes (not just hockey players) getting these grants vs. Canadian non-athletes getting these grants.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The way you worded this (going after foreign athletes, then after the fact recruiting non-athletes to 'balance it out'), I believe that would be classified as a major NCAA violation. It'd probabliy get a harsher penalty than buff state and geneseo recieved, since intent is involved.

It is to be expected that the athletic departments will be "going after athletes", however, the financial aid office can not consider athletic abilities in determining who receives what, and consequently what students decide they can afford to attend. "Only after the fact", that is after the potential students become students can an evaluation of student athletes to non-student athletes be made, that was my point.

 

[elbojpb]

Precedent

Precedent

This was a violation the school as a whole stumbled into. Maybe they weren't vigilant enough to stay atop of a possible infraction, and that can be argued anyway you want.

This whole vigilance issue was debated ad nauseum when RIT announced their move to D1, and if I recall, Union was the other non-Ivy school cited that was subject to the regulations.

Other schools have and are complying with the regulations, it's simply too bad that two decent hockey programs are going to suffer for no fault of their own. Perhaps the Geneseo SID who just joined the forums could shed some light on how this item slipped through the cracks!?

 

[BengalBroadcaster44]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I think a lot of you are forgetting the fact that in Buffalo State's case its mostly a commuter school. The Campus is located right near Fort Erie where commuters travel back and forth from the border to attend school while still being able to live at home. That could have a substantial impact on the number of Canadians living on campus as opposed to at home commuting.

Also its not the Athletics Departments fault completely as much as it is Admissions. They handle the grants not the athletic department.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Precedent

Re: Precedent

it's simply too bad that two decent hockey programs are going to suffer for no fault of their own.

I'm sure somebody at the colleges is at fault. Post-seasons don't just get vacated and programs put on probation for no reason.

But as has been said already, the ones who are really going to suffer the most because of this are the ones who bear none of the blame for it: the student athletes affected. And that seems the most unfair to me.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Tennis anyone? At least one coach found the NCAA to be "a joke"

 

[terminal tackle]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

How frustrating for students and their families. Too bad the students trusted the adults involved and made decisions that could impact the rest of their life. Maybe there should be a referendum on the state ballot asking the New York State voters if they would like their tax dollars supporting Canadian Hockey players/athletes. I can understand creating diversity initiatives through grants at private institutions but using state and federal $ is a horse of a different color. Bottom line is the kids get screwed.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

How frustrating for students and their families. Too bad the students trusted the adults involved and made decisions that could impact the rest of their life. Maybe there should be a referendum on the state ballot asking the New York State voters if they would like their tax dollars supporting Canadian Hockey players/athletes. I can understand creating diversity initiatives through grants at private institutions but using state and federal $ is a horse of a different color. Bottom line is the kids get screwed.

Diversity & Inclusion is an EXTREMLY vital and integral component of ANY education – public or private!!! More so in today’s world than ever before.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Precedent

Re: Precedent

This whole vigilance issue was debated ad nauseum when RIT announced their move to D1, and if I recall, Union was the other non-Ivy school cited that was subject to the regulations.

Union has a SELF imposed policy not to give athletic scholarships out when they moved their hockey team to D1. The NCAA has nothing to do with it.

RIT, however, moved their hockey team up to D1 after the NCAA passed the rule that any new programs that move only one sport up to D1 cannot hand out athletic scholarships. (Older programs like Clarkson and St. Lawrence were grandfathered in.)

Other schools have and are complying with the regulations, it's simply too bad that two decent hockey programs are going to suffer for no fault of their own. Perhaps the Geneseo SID who just joined the forums could shed some light on how this item slipped through the cracks!?

I've said this time and time again in this thread -- part of the problem is the NCAA decided to look at this situation differently (after 2006), when before they were saying everything was being done correctly.

 

[terminal tackle]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Norm, I agree that diversity of thought, culture, ethnicity and economic as well as inclusion is a critical component of a successful eduction. I support this concept; not the financial incentive for one group like Canadian hockey players.
BTW, if the National Anthem were to be played at a PSU men's soccer would they also play the Canadian Anthem? If there are athletes from Brazil or Germany would their national anthem also be played?

 

[aerogroup2]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Norm, I agree that diversity of thought, culture, ethnicity and economic as well as inclusion is a critical component of a successful eduction. I support this concept; not the financial incentive for one group like Canadian hockey players.
BTW, if the National Anthem were to be played at a PSU men's soccer would they also play the Canadian Anthem? If there are athletes from Brazil or Germany would their national anthem also be played?

Plattsburgh does not play the Canadian National Anthem at hockey games. The only exception might be if the Cards were playing a Canadian team in an exhibition game.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What a second -- rereading your note, this is not the question.

The question, and I thought I wrote this clearly in the updated version of my article, is the ratio of Canadian athletes (not just hockey players) getting these grants vs. Canadian non-athletes getting these grants.

Russell, if you look at the math, the issue can be phrased as the proportion of Canadians among the athletes, compared to the proportion of Canadians among the student body. (If these are the same, what you asserted would be the same). The men's hockey team then gets singled out because the only Canadian male athletes receiving these grants were hockey players.

 

[elbojpb]

Re: Precedent

Re: Precedent

I'm sure somebody at the colleges is at fault.

I'd be surprised if complying with scholarship quotas is part of the hockey program's realm of responsibilities. That ~usually~ resides in the admissions dept. So yes, someone at the two colleges was asleep at the wheel, but I'd be surprised if it were in the hockey programs, or even Athletics Dept.

Since students are typically required to complete the last 60 hours of any degreed program at the issuing college, it's the juniors that will really suffer. Sophs could transfer if they chose to, but juniors are SOL.