Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[SB in the 'Seo]

Re: Precedent

Re: Precedent

Since students are typically required to complete the last 60 hours of any degreed program at the issuing college, it's the juniors that will really suffer. Sophs could transfer if they chose to, but juniors are SOL.

Do we know the amount of the grant (for either school)? Or does it vary by student? People have thrown out numbers to create hypotheticals throughout this thread, but I'm not sure if any of those numbers are accurate/confirmed.

The reason I say this is because I don't think the NCAA cares about the amount the grants were for just the % of people accepting the grant that were athletes. The NCAA doesn't care, but the students (and in most cases their parents) do. The amount of transfers out will certainly be dependant (among other factors) upon how much more money they will have to pay.

 

[one_to7]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

It's up to the athletes to decide what's more important, the cheap education or playing their sport. If they stay, they can choose to play and pay without the grant, or they can choose to give up the sport and continue to go to school with the reduced costs.

 

[Josh Carey]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

It's up to the athletes to decide what's more important, the cheap education or playing their sport. If they stay, they can choose to play and pay without the grant, or they can choose to give up the sport and continue to go to school with the reduced costs.

Or transfer to a school that still has the grants in place and play for another team.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Or transfer to a school that still has the grants in place and play for another team.

It will be interesting to see...I know the coaches got together over the summer and made an unwriten agreement not to interconference trade their players....unless for degree purposes. This could be an exception I guess...

 

[SB in the 'Seo]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I've seen a few posts since this news broke implying the SUNYAC playoff field is set because no Geneseo/Buffalo State and Morrisville is not eligible. I was under the impression that this was the first year Morrisville was eligible? I never saw anyone correct those posts so did I just miss the "Morrisville isn't eligible after all" memo or were those posts incorrect?

 

[gknight]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I would be interested to know if there is any proof that Geneseo was not offering this same financial package to other Canadian students. If this grant was available to any Canadian student who wanted it but there just weren't many who wanted to come to Geneseo then I would not agree with this punishment at all.

Does anyone know if there are Canadian students at Geneseo who are not receiving the same financial package as the hockey players? Or is it just possible that there is no reason a Canadian would go to school in Geneseo unless they wanted to play a sport?? I just don't see how a little school in the corn fields of NY would be appealing to a Canadian who could go to school in Canada cheaper than they would be able to go to Geneseo even with the grant the hockey players were getting.

I would hope that there is some knowledge that other current Canadian Geneseo students were not receiving this grant or that prospective Canadian students were not being offered it.

If what was actually happening is that everyone who applied for the grant was given it, but it was mainly just hockey players that were interested in coming to Geneseo, then I don't agree with the NCAA's decision at all.

What will happen with Kaz Iwamoto? He is from Japan and on the same financial package as the Canadians, but he would be receiving the International grant rather than the Canadian grant, same thing but different name. And there are many international students receiving that same grant so he is just a small percentage. So that makes it ok for him to get it but not the Canadians? Why is it that the NCAA would single out one country when there are students receiving the grant from many countries and that would have certainly made the ratio much more favorable. This is the paragraph from the article that brings up this point to some extent:

"Though many schools, including Geneseo, have an active international recruiting effort complete with scholarships and aid packages, it was specifically the ratio of Canadian athletes versus Canadian non-athletes that caught the attention of the NCAA. The NCAA no longer looked at the overall foreign student population, but just focused on the Canadian population..."

So if there is one student in the whole school from some tiny country that is receiving a grant of some type and they decide they want to play a sport and makes the team, then is that a violation because there aren't other students from that country at Geneseo who don't play a sport?? I know that it wasn't just one canadian but the way the NCAA views these types of things you just never know what they might view as unfair.

 

[one_to7]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I would be interested to know if there is any proof that Geneseo was not offering this same financial package to other Canadian students. If this grant was available to any Canadian student who wanted it but there just weren't many who wanted to come to Geneseo then I would not agree with this punishment at all.

Does anyone know if there are Canadian students at Geneseo who are not receiving the same financial package as the hockey players? Or is it just possible that there is no reason a Canadian would go to school in Geneseo unless they wanted to play a sport?? I just don't see how a little school in the corn fields of NY would be appealing to a Canadian who could go to school in Canada cheaper than they would be able to go to Geneseo even with the grant the hockey players were getting.

I would hope that there is some knowledge that other current Canadian Geneseo students were not receiving this grant or that prospective Canadian students were not being offered it.

If what was actually happening is that everyone who applied for the grant was given it, but it was mainly just hockey players that were interested in coming to Geneseo, then I don't agree with the NCAA's decision at all.

What will happen with Kaz Iwamoto? He is from Japan and on the same financial package as the Canadians, but he would be receiving the International grant rather than the Canadian grant, same thing but different name. And there are many international students receiving that same grant so he is just a small percentage. So that makes it ok for him to get it but not the Canadians? Why is it that the NCAA would single out one country when there are students receiving the grant from many countries and that would have certainly made the ratio much more favorable. This is the paragraph from the article that brings up this point to some extent:

"Though many schools, including Geneseo, have an active international recruiting effort complete with scholarships and aid packages, it was specifically the ratio of Canadian athletes versus Canadian non-athletes that caught the attention of the NCAA. The NCAA no longer looked at the overall foreign student population, but just focused on the Canadian population..."

So if there is one student in the whole school from some tiny country that is receiving a grant of some type and they decide they want to play a sport and makes the team, then is that a violation because there aren't other students from that country at Geneseo who don't play a sport?? I know that it wasn't just one canadian but the way the NCAA views these types of things you just never know what they might view as unfair.

You might want to read: the press release, USCHO's article on it, or the whole thread.

In the 3 years cited, the % of geneseo's canadians that were also athletes were 90%, 100%, and 89%. When you have a grant specifically for canadians, with %'s like that, the NCAA apparently decided it was a defacto athletic scholarship.

The NCAA announced a few years ago that it would look at things this way and began an audit of schools. People had warning that things would change and things like this would be punishable, and some schools changed who and where they recruit to try and balance things out some more.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I've seen a few posts since this news broke implying the SUNYAC playoff field is set because no Geneseo/Buffalo State and Morrisville is not eligible. I was under the impression that this was the first year Morrisville was eligible? I never saw anyone correct those posts so did I just miss the "Morrisville isn't eligible after all" memo or were those posts incorrect?

I thought Morrisville was eligible this year too but I want to say Jaslow said that was incorrect.

 

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The program in question is SUNY-wide and has been around a very long time with updates and modifications to conform with ncaa regs over that period. It's all about management and visibility in admissions, athletics and ultimately college administration staying on top of things....

 

[Josh Carey]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I thought Morrisville was eligible this year too but I want to say Jaslow said that was incorrect.

Ditto. Think we need to have Russel weigh in on this.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I've seen a few posts since this news broke implying the SUNYAC playoff field is set because no Geneseo/Buffalo State and Morrisville is not eligible. I was under the impression that this was the first year Morrisville was eligible? I never saw anyone correct those posts so did I just miss the "Morrisville isn't eligible after all" memo or were those posts incorrect?

I must admit, I thought they were eligible this year, too.

However, when all this broke, I verified they are NOT. Straight from the SUNYAC Commissioner's mouth.

 

[SB in the 'Seo]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What will happen with Kaz Iwamoto?

Iwamoto is quietly making a case for SUNYAC ROY and I would think if the season ended today he would at least be on the SUNYAC all-rookie team (3rd in SUNYAC Freshman scoring.)

As far as what will happen to him and anyone else for that matter - there was a post earlier that said it best - "All bets are off."

As another earlier post said it would be hard to imagine a junior leaving the school (if they came back but didn't play hockey is another question) so given the situation it would be nice if it was a junior heavy team. Unfortunately, Geneseo's junior class is a mix of energy guys (Forgione/Rygiel) and players who see minimal playing time (Sullivan, Charbonneau, Elliot, Battaglia, Kessler) not the big guns.

IMO, The key pieces for Geneseo moving forward to next season are:

Forward:

DeCosse - (So./Can)
Arduin - (So./Can)
Redlick - (So./Can)
Olson - (So./Can)
Iwamoto - (Fr./Japan)

Defense:

Yard - (So./Can)

Goalie:

Rubenik - (Fr./Can)
Gershon - (So./USA)


So the nightmare scenario is that you lose your "blue chip" Canadian guys due to the money issues, then Gershon and Iwamoto see the ship sinking around them and head for greener pastures. Best case - all the players come back and forfeit the grant in order to play on the team. My guess is the result will be somewhere in between.

 

[sticksnstones]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Iwamoto is having a good season, but I think as far as ROY is concerned, thats a two-horse race between Oswego's Jon Whitelaw and Fredonia's Mat Hehr.

 

[Josh Carey]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

As far as what will happen to him and anyone else for that matter - there was a post earlier that said it best - "All bets are off."

If my read on the situation is correct, Iwamoto should still be fine to receive whatever international package he has and remain on the team. The violations were related to Canadian packages specifically and if they were separated out into an entire international segment, Geneseo wouldn't be in this mess.

(Also, I wonder if people associated with Buffalo State are pleased with their lack of {dedicated} fans right now - not a lot of discussion about the BSU aspect of this around here...)

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

If my read on the situation is correct, Iwamoto should still be fine to receive whatever international package he has and remain on the team.

You are probably correct since Geneseo has a lot of Japanese students receiving aid who are not athletes. Thus Iwamoto wouldn't trip the flag.

The violations were related to Canadian packages specifically and if they were separated out into an entire international segment, Geneseo wouldn't be in this mess.

You keep missing the key point here. It is the NCAA that separated out the Canadian numbers from the International numbers.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

...You keep missing the key point here. It is the NCAA that separated out the Canadian numbers from the International numbers.

Geneseo's grant program was the “The Canadian Student Initiative Grants” and Buffalo State’s the “Canadian Incentive Grant”, the NCAA did NOT separate "Canadian numbers from the International numbers", the NCAA separated out the Student Athlete Recipients versus the non-student athlete recipients.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Geneseo's grant program was the “The Canadian Student Initiative Grants” and Buffalo State’s the “Canadian Incentive Grant”, the NCAA did NOT separate "Canadian numbers from the International numbers", the NCAA separated out the Student Athlete Recipients versus the non-student athlete recipients.

It is my understanding, prior to 2006, the NCAA looked at all international aid together no matter what it was called. After 2006, they looked at it separately.

It doesn't matter what the schools called it. That's my point.

Here is the key point in my article: "Though many schools, including Geneseo, have an active international recruiting effort complete with scholarships and aid packages, it was specifically the ratio of Canadian athletes versus Canadian non-athletes that caught the attention of the NCAA. The NCAA no longer looked at the overall foreign student population, but just focused on the Canadian population and the proportionality of athletes of all sports and the aid they were receiving."

In fact, I specifically asked the Geneseo President why with such an active international program did his school get in trouble for this, and he said it it because this time they separated out the Canadian numbers.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

It is my understanding, prior to 2006, the NCAA looked at all international aid together no matter what it was called. After 2006, they looked at it separately.

It doesn't matter what the schools called it. That's my point.

Here is the key point in my article: "Though many schools, including Geneseo, have an active international recruiting effort complete with scholarships and aid packages, it was specifically the ratio of Canadian athletes versus Canadian non-athletes that caught the attention of the NCAA. The NCAA no longer looked at the overall foreign student population, but just focused on the Canadian population and the proportionality of athletes of all sports and the aid they were receiving."

In fact, I specifically asked the Geneseo President why with such an active international program did his school get in trouble for this, and he said it it because this time they separated out the Canadian numbers.

First, I do NOT doubt your, or President Dahl's, understanding of the situation especially knowing we are talking about the NCAA. That said, Singling out any specific country (versus student athletes) just wouldn't make sense, the school would have to prohibit students from countries with few students from participating in sports least they draw the ire of the NCAA. I do believe President Dahl meant they separated out the Canadian program. Unless there are individual but IDENTICAL financial aid offerings for EVERY individual country, lumping "all international aid together" would NOT make much sense (then again, we are dealing with the NCAA, so I guess anything is possible).

IMO, the schools should have lumped ALL international students together, under a single program (as do many other DIII schools).

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

First, I do NOT doubt your, or President Dahl's, understanding of the situation especially knowing we are talking about the NCAA. That said, Singling out any specific country (versus student athletes) just wouldn't make sense, the school would have to prohibit students from countries with few students from participating in sports least they draw the ire of the NCAA. I do believe President Dahl meant they separated out the Canadian program. Unless there are individual but IDENTICAL financial aid offerings for EVERY individual country, lumping "all international aid together" would NOT make much sense (then again, we are dealing with the NCAA, so I guess anything is possible).

IMO, the schools should have lumped ALL international students together, under a single program (as do many other DIII schools).

I don't think it would have mattered.

That's why I use my example if the soccer team had six Brazilians, all brought in under the international aid program, but those were the only six Brazilians in the school, I believe they would be in trouble.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I don't think it would have mattered.

That's why I use my example if the soccer team had six Brazilians, all brought in under the international aid program, but those were the only six Brazilians in the school, I believe they would be in trouble.

I think the issue is that it seems (or seemed to the NCAA) that the Canadian package was significantly different from financial aid incentives offered to citizens of other countries. The soccer example would be a red flag, regardless of labels if the school gave a different kind of FA package for Brazilians than, say, Austrians.