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2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

It's a nice critique of chauvinism

BS!

To get to Ridder arena where the Gophers play or the X where Team USA/Canada tangled I have to drive by the Mall Of America or I park nearby and take transit. Guess what, the place is overflowing with women shopping rather than go watch the best female hockey players on the planet. The Saturday Team USA played at the X (or any saturday) will find the MOA with traffic jams, primarily females going to shop. Wonder how many of them have ever went to see Team USA or the Gophers, or one of the many fine high school teams play?

It is NOT a male thing, women don't support female hockey, so don't go blaming men. Canada doesn't support their pro league, and you can count the number of colleges on one hand that draw a decent crowd. High school games only are able to draw family of the players and a few friends.

Nobody goes to watch females play hockey, ask women why they don't go to watch women's hockey. I go because it is the best bang for the buck (literally sometimes it is only a buck) it is the most entertaining hockey IMO. Maybe if they put a nail salon and a shoe store on the concourse they could get women to go watch women's hockey.
 
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Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

BS!


Nobody goes to watch females play hockey, ask women why they don't go to watch women's hockey. .


The exception to this is during the Olympics. I read that the CBC's TV audience in Canada was 5.6 million for the Canada-US women's round robin game, considerably higher than that of either the NHL Winter Classic between the beloved Maple Leafs vs Red Wings, as well as of the men's Olympic Russia-US OT game this past weekend. Go figure.

Here's the link to the Toronto Star column citing the above stats, and explaining why women's hockey is here to stay at the Olympics

http://www.thestar.com/sports/sochi..._with_olympic_womens_hockey_not_much_cox.html
 
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Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

While I agree with the article's general thrust it makes a pretty egregious math error in comparing article quantity and it also loses a lot of credibility by insisting that there are many women's hockey players who would be successful in the NHL. As much as I might wish that were true it just isn't. That actually highlights why we need a professional league for women but it still makes the author sound clueless.
Here's another (saner?) voice for a women's pro league: http://www.mndaily.com/sports/womens-hockey/2014/02/17/column-its-time-pro-womens-hockey-ya-feel-me
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

While I agree with the article's general thrust it makes a pretty egregious math error in comparing article quantity and it also loses a lot of credibility by insisting that there are many women's hockey players who would be successful in the NHL. As much as I might wish that were true it just isn't. That actually highlights why we need a professional league for women but it still makes the author sound clueless.

When I first read that article, I liked what I was reading, and then it fell apart once it got to the things you mentioned.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

BS!

To get to Ridder arena where the Gophers play or the X where Team USA/Canada tangled I have to drive by the Mall Of America or I park nearby and take transit. Guess what, the place is overflowing with women shopping rather than go watch the best female hockey players on the planet. The Saturday Team USA played at the X (or any saturday) will find the MOA with traffic jams, primarily females going to shop. Wonder how many of them have ever went to see Team USA or the Gophers, or one of the many fine high school teams play?

It is NOT a male thing, women don't support female hockey, so don't go blaming men. Canada doesn't support their pro league, and you can count the number of colleges on one hand that draw a decent crowd. High school games only are able to draw family of the players and a few friends.

Nobody goes to watch females play hockey, ask women why they don't go to watch women's hockey. I go because it is the best bang for the buck (literally sometimes it is only a buck) it is the most entertaining hockey IMO. Maybe if they put a nail salon and a shoe store on the concourse they could get women to go watch women's hockey.

If you read my post past the first sentence, you'll see I agree with everything you wrote -- that male chauvinism isn't the main problem. I cited the same stats Trillium did. Men and women will watch women's sports if it's an event tied to a prestigious brand like the Olympics or the World Cup in soccer. Otherwise, no.

When I said it was a nice critique, I meant it did captures the attitudes of some men. But like I said, I disagree with many of the points made in the satire.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Saner, but off the mark in my view:

There’s always the chicken-or-the-egg question of whether the media needs to cover the sport for people to be interested, or vice versa. That’s valid, but the game is indeed growing.

In the NCAA, college attendance at women’s hockey games is up across the board. And more than 5 million people watched the United States play Canada last Wednesday — at 5 a.m.

That’s because people pay to see a good product.
I don't think it's very chicken-egg. Media usually will write about new leagues. If people don't show up, then the media stops covering it. The idea that women's sports would do better if media just treated it fairly is totally naive. The 2001 WUSA had about as much media hype as you could imagine and TV coverage on TNT and still didn't survive.

Is women's college attendance up across the board???? My sense is it peaks when teams first get some special players: e.g. 1999 Harvard, 2004 Clarkson/SLU, 2007 Mercyhurst... then levels off a lot.

The idea that people will simply "pay for a good product" where product means the quality of the players is total nonsense. Olympic women's hockey is a good product. The Olympic women's hockey players playing in a new pro league with no prior fan base or history is not a good product. This isn't just a women's thing. New men's leagues struggle mightily too.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

New professional leagues that survive tend to fall into one or more of three categories:

1) Have serious financial backing from some other operation. The WNBA is an example of this;
2) Take advantage of some sort of demographic opening. MLS falls into this category, appealing to both the enormous number of people who grew up playing soccer and the growth of the Latino population that grew up watching professional soccer;
3) Small leagues that are willing to operate on the margins while also functioning as de facto minor/developmental leagues for bigger players. The various arena football leagues that have come and gone (and for whom the term "survived" is often used loosely) are examples.

Women's ice hockey won't have any of these advantages. Given that there is no evidence that there is much crossover between fans of a men's sport and fans of the same sport played by women there really isn't any way to take advantage of increasing popularity of men's hockey.

The league that I think bears the most resemblance to anything that we could hope for is Major League Lacrosse. And to be honest, that's barely a step up from the CWHL. The players are paid anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000 per season. Teams have come and gone, with MLL fluctuating between six, eight, and ten teams in any given season. They've never played more than 14 games each in a season. What will be hard to replicate is that MLL averages more than 5,000 fans per game. The National Lacrosse League is similar, though with a longer history, a more Canadian orientation, and a couple of extra thousand fans per game. Even with that attendance, though, the players can't be anything like full time.

That's the best case scenario.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Wonder if we're getting to the point where we should split out this pro league discussion, but anyway...

New professional leagues that survive tend to fall into one or more of three categories:

1) Have serious financial backing from some other operation. The WNBA is an example of this;

NHL did hire Val Ackerman to look into WNHL but ultimately they decided "not pursue anything at this time" according to one recent report I read. I don't know exactly what that decision entailed or what kind of models they considered.

2) Take advantage of some sort of demographic opening. MLS falls into this category, appealing to both the enormous number of people who grew up playing soccer and the growth of the Latino population that grew up watching professional soccer;
MLS also has a couple more advantages
-- A strong vested interest from US Soccer to have the league to develop the national player pool. The U.S. women's national team obviously has much less competitive pressure.
-- Billionaires willing to own teams, I think some who helped keep the whole thing afloat in earlier years

3) Small leagues that are willing to operate on the margins while also functioning as de facto minor/developmental leagues for bigger players. The various arena football leagues that have come and gone (and for whom the term "survived" is often used loosely) are examples.
You also have independent minor baseball leagues that survive okay, and they survive in part by avoiding travel costs. You could possibly have an Ontario/Quebec only league that could survive, but that's usually not what people have in mind in terms of scale of a pro league.

The league that I think bears the most resemblance to anything that we could hope for is Major League Lacrosse. And to be honest, that's barely a step up from the CWHL. The players are paid anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000 per season. Teams have come and gone, with MLL fluctuating between six, eight, and ten teams in any given season. They've never played more than 14 games each in a season. What will be hard to replicate is that MLL averages more than 5,000 fans per game. The National Lacrosse League is similar, though with a longer history, a more Canadian orientation, and a couple of extra thousand fans per game. Even with that attendance, though, the players can't be anything like full time.
Right, MLL does definitely not meet the Noora Raty's standards either.

Now, I think when we're talking about success in women's sports, we're missing something by ignoring the WTA. Obviously there are huge differences since tennis is an individual sport, but the WTA is notable in that it has leveraged established brands like Grand Slams into women's only tournaments throughout the year that have done well. One appealing feature of this model is that when a WTA Event comes to town, it's an EVENT that only happens once a year, and it gets a lot of media coverage and attention. And you're able to attract a core of fans who are willing to consume a fairly niche product of women's tennis in bulk that one weekend.

This is a totally crazy idea I thought of yesterday, but let's say you have six pro teams, tied to the original six NHL cities with Minneapolis replacing NYC. But instead of a typical sports league, you have them tour the six cities together, once in the Fall, and once in the Winter, and have tournaments each weekend with 3 games each on Friday-Saturday-Sunday (9 games total). Then you aggregate the results from the 12 tournaments to determine playoff teams, and you do best-of-three series at higher seeds for semifinals one weekend and championship for another weekend.

What I like about the approach is every time the top 120 players in the world come to your city, it's an event, that can be promoted, rather than having scattered games throughout the year at odd times. You can time these tournaments during road weekends for NHL teams, and avoid schedule problems that force the WNBA into the summer. You can also structure the timing Boston->Montreal->Toronto->Detroit->Chicago->Minneapolis to minimize a lot of intercity travel costs. I see the biggest problem would be the costs of keeping 120 players & staff on the road most of the season, but that is pretty much what tennis players do, with much worse intercity travel costs.

So it's a totally out there idea, but clearly what most new leagues are doing now doesn't work, so it's worth trying to think totally outside the box.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

New professional leagues that survive tend to fall into one or more of three categories:

1) Have serious financial backing from some other operation. The WNBA is an example of this;
2) Take advantage of some sort of demographic opening. MLS falls into this category, appealing to both the enormous number of people who grew up playing soccer and the growth of the Latino population that grew up watching professional soccer;
3) Small leagues that are willing to operate on the margins while also functioning as de facto minor/developmental leagues for bigger players. The various arena football leagues that have come and gone (and for whom the term "survived" is often used loosely) are examples.

Women's ice hockey won't have any of these advantages. Given that there is no evidence that there is much crossover between fans of a men's sport and fans of the same sport played by women there really isn't any way to take advantage of increasing popularity of men's hockey.

The league that I think bears the most resemblance to anything that we could hope for is Major League Lacrosse. And to be honest, that's barely a step up from the CWHL. The players are paid anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000 per season. Teams have come and gone, with MLL fluctuating between six, eight, and ten teams in any given season. They've never played more than 14 games each in a season. What will be hard to replicate is that MLL averages more than 5,000 fans per game. The National Lacrosse League is similar, though with a longer history, a more Canadian orientation, and a couple of extra thousand fans per game. Even with that attendance, though, the players can't be anything like full time.

That's the best case scenario.



You make some great points. I personally love women's hockey! I'd love for their to be a women's professional league, but the reality is just as you laid it out, its probably not going to happen.


Reality.


Life sucks sometimes. Reality sucks ALOT. Why isn't there a professional Cheer Team League, or a Professional Rowing League or a Professional Water Polo League? The best athletes in the world in those sports ALSO have to move on and get real jobs when their collegiate careers are over. And most of the more individual based sports like gymnastics, swimming and diving, track and field, etc., are also sports with very little in the way of a life after college.


Another aspect that most are forgetting, is that a lot of people who follow pro sports, do not follow college sports, and vice versa. Personally I don't watch more than the occasional Wild game, or Timberwolves game or Twins game, until they make the playoffs. Then as a Minnesotan my state pride kicks in and I follow them through the playoffs. But I watch the Gophers BB, Fb, men's hockey and women's hockey, wrestling, womens bb, and volleyball whenever they are on tv, and listen to the hockey, fb or bb games when I can't get them on tv and keep up with them and others like womens and mens gymnastics for example, on the internet. I am primarily a COLLEGE sports fan. Honestly, I might not give a hoot about the Olympics either, if it wasn't for former gophers being involved. Call me unpatriotic if you will, but its not that I don't want the US to do well, I do, but some of the sports don't interest me is all.



So I have to ask myself, if I had to choose between spending money to go to a Minneapolis Freeze Women's Pro Hockey game, or a Gophers Men's Hockey game or a Gophers Mens BB game or a Gophers Women's Hockey game, I'd choose the Gophers. That Minnesota Freeze game would be my 4th highest priority, at best. Unless it was the playoffs, of course.
AND, that Minnesota Freeze roster would need to have a lot of former Gopher's on the team as well.

Although, if that Minnesota Freeze team played its games during the summer, now then they'd get me to come to those games a lot more often.

And that's the thing, a professional womens hockey league, imho, would have to play its games during the summer so as not to compete with college hockey, as the majority of its fans would probably be college hockey fans, at least at the beginning, and they also couldn't compete with the NHL for fans of professional hockey, either. Teams would have to be located in Minneapolis, St Paul, Fargo, Duluth & Madison so as to capitalize on the past and recent success of those 4 college programs and their players and to limit travel expenses, for the most part and like they did in the old days, I think the teams would need to implement some sort of regional draft system, so that, for example, the Minneapolis Freeze would have a good percentage of its roster being former Gophers, maybe mixed in with some foreign players and then a mix of eastern players as well? Just thinking outloud I guess? Please don't berate me too harshly if any of these ideas aren't very good?


OR, the NHL could subsidize a professional womens league with teams located in cities that would best fit the interests of the NHL, if such circumstances exist?

Maybe convincing NHL executives that the best way to get more women interested in watching NHL hockey, is to first get them interested in Women's hockey?!

Convince NHL executives that the best way to increase how much men spend on hockey, is to get their wives and girlfriends hooked on following hockey as well, by way of getting them to first support women's hockey?!



I don't know, like I mentioned above already, I'm just brainstorming, its late, I've got insomnia, and I have to admit I've been dishonest with myself in the past about how good the chances are of a professional women's hockey league starting up anytime soon really are but I'd love it if one did, so I'm thinking outloud and making those thoughts public here to see what others think?
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

dave --

Seems we are both up late and contemplating different ways to make Pro Women's Hockey work, lol. I actually had a different version of your idea in my head as well, but didn't want to add it to my post as it would have gotten too lengthy and I figured I could post that idea at a later time if no one else did. I may still do that?

But I love the fact that you are thinking about it, same as me and same as many other women's hockey fans out there.

Biggest difference between your idea and mine is the time of the year. I think a women's professional league would have to shoot for games during the summer. Think about it, people might love the idea of getting away from the summer heat by going into a cooled off building to watch some ice hockey?!


But I have to say that your idea that it might be best to make it into an EVENT is a good one.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

This is a totally crazy idea I thought of yesterday, but let's say you have six pro teams, tied to the original six NHL cities with Minneapolis replacing NYC. But instead of a typical sports league, you have them tour the six cities together, once in the Fall, and once in the Winter, and have tournaments each weekend with 3 games each on Friday-Saturday-Sunday (9 games total). Then you aggregate the results from the 12 tournaments to determine playoff teams, and you do best-of-three series at higher seeds for semifinals one weekend and championship for another weekend.

What I like about the approach is every time the top 120 players in the world come to your city, it's an event, that can be promoted, rather than having scattered games throughout the year at odd times. You can time these tournaments during road weekends for NHL teams, and avoid schedule problems that force the WNBA into the summer. You can also structure the timing Boston->Montreal->Toronto->Detroit->Chicago->Minneapolis to minimize a lot of intercity travel costs. I see the biggest problem would be the costs of keeping 120 players & staff on the road most of the season, but that is pretty much what tennis players do, with much worse intercity travel costs.

So it's a totally out there idea, but clearly what most new leagues are doing now doesn't work, so it's worth trying to think totally outside the box.

I don't think it's so crazy.

I've had countless conversations over the last few years with the guy who holds the scrimmages in our area that I've mentioned about this very idea. The packaging has to be different than regular league play and, using this concept, when the tournament comes to town it would have a better chance of attracting good crowds because it would/should be "sold" as an event, a travelling show similar to what Dana White does with the UFC.

Deals could possibly be made with television networks, hotels and airlines etc. etc.. But the key would likely be to start small with a few teams in one regional market to test the validity of the concept and if it worked well enough in the first year or two then, with sustainable growth, expand the number of teams and the number of markets...sort of like the cluster concept being utilized in Sochi to house all the venues. Then if it worked up to that point you could grow into having playoffs (tournament style) between the teams representing the various markets/clusters.

But I think that the important thing is packaging as in "the event is coming to town next Saturday and we don't know if or when it will ever be back" as opposed to being able to go to a game whenever you felt like it during league play...and if you missed one, well, that's not such a big deal because they play again in a few days.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I've read this article more than once and I get pretty ragey every time, but Ima gonna share it anyway.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/thn-in-sochi-womens-hockey-still-has-a-long-way-to-go/

Major issues?
Puts entire onus on NA - apparently its not on other countries to fix their own problems
Seems to think NCAA isn't already importing top European talent
Ignoring that, implied we should skip over talented US players in order to give Europeans somewhere to play
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I don't know where it stands as far as planning/implementation but there is a women's pro 3 on 3 (or 4 on 4 can't recall) league in the works. I know there are several teams slated for the Northeast, and I believe several more for the GTA.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I've read this article more than once and I get pretty ragey every time, but Ima gonna share it anyway.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/thn-in-sochi-womens-hockey-still-has-a-long-way-to-go/

I think the author made some good points and observations, whether you agree with it or not. Clearly food for thought. His premise is to invest more here, and bring more European players over here. As I posted before, I think the approach should be to invest more over there, and do the development and infusion of talent over there.

Side note: Interesting to learn the Schelling works in the IT department of the IIHF. There is also a form of a message in that. Give top college grads a job in Europe that can be easily tied in with a semi-pro hockey career on the side. I bet that a lot of NA players just graduating would go for opportunities like that.
 
Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

What I like about the approach is every time the top 120 players in the world come to your city, it's an event, that can be promoted, rather than having scattered games throughout the year at odd times. You can time these tournaments during road weekends for NHL teams, and avoid schedule problems that force the WNBA into the summer. You can also structure the timing Boston->Montreal->Toronto->Detroit->Chicago->Minneapolis to minimize a lot of intercity travel costs. I see the biggest problem would be the costs of keeping 120 players & staff on the road most of the season, but that is pretty much what tennis players do, with much worse intercity travel costs.

Dave, professional tennis players are individually responsible for travel, meals, and accommodations. They are paid an appearance fee by the tournaments that are sponsored by the likes of BNP Paribas, AT&T, IBM, etc... but all of their out of pocket costs are born by the player. In order to make your idea work, you would have to have corporate sponsorships in addition to ticket sales, apparel sales, other marketing such as appearances with youth and club teams, and I'm not sure the money would make it profitable. Look, even the WNBA is having issues. The Los Angeles Sparks just laid off their entire front office and staff because they can't make it work financially. They have coaches and players but no admin or front office. How crazy is that?

I applaud what the Blues did in supporting Jaden Schwartz for his sister's fundraiser at Yale. That was a classy act. But asking other NHL teams to get involved won't fly. They had enough trouble coming together on a collective bargaining agreement. I can't see them extending themselves for women's hockey. A shame really.

I think you have to start with boys and girls tournaments played at a single venue to give the girls some exposure and teeth. Unfortunately it can't work in college hockey but can you imagine a HE men's and women's tournament at TD Garden? That I believe can start to get women's hockey some traction.
 
Did anyone catch Jimmy Fallon last night? Lol. Also, my TiVo records all Olympic activity under 'Olympian Julie Chu's favorite video'. perfect.
 
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Did anyone catch Jimmy Fallon last night? Lol. Also, my TiVo records all Olympic activity under 'Olympian Julie Chu's favorite video'. perfect.

Yeah, pretty funny...and cool that the US CANADA dominance was mentioned and poo pooed.
 
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