2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I get that, but think of this:

There's 9 players on a team. There's 1 manager that controls which 9 are in the lineup, and for how long. If I'm managing, and I'm tanking a game, a certain All-Star is getting a "scheduled" day off, or a starting pitcher is coming out due to "being tired", or I make sure the guy stays out there 2-3 batters too many, because I was trying to nurse him through that inning and not burn up the bullpen. I could rest a couple of regulars to take the teeth right out of the lineup. The closer gets the day off because he's had a heavy workload lately, and a 4-3 win turns into a 6-4 loss.

And if I'm betting only on my team to win (as Rose alleges), what does that say about the games where I do not place a bet? I'm sure you agree that there's a huge can of worms here.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I agree that Joe Jackson should come off the banned list before Rose gets any consideration.

On McGwire vs. Jackson, McGwire was very one dimensional, and very good at that one dimension. Reggie was a much more well-rounded player. I remember watching him with the A's in the 70s, and he was a good fielder, with a cannon for an arm, and had good speed on the basepaths. Plus of course his postseason heroics give him an important intangible.

Joe Jackson had a lifetime ban from baseball. Since he is no longer among the living, that ban should be over and he should be put into the HOF.

The same should apply to Pete Rose.

 

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I think that technically, they were placed on the Permanently Ineligible list.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Joe Jackson had a lifetime ban from baseball. Since he is no longer among the living, that ban should be over and he should be put into the HOF.

The same should apply to Pete Rose.

Nahhhh...I'd prefer not to question the decision made at the time. Both are permanently banned from the Hall.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

And yet McGwire had a significantly higher career OBP. Reggie played almost 1000 more games than McGwire, of course he's going to have compiled a lot more hits. If you're disregarding the steroid issue, though, McGwire was clearly the more effective hitter of the two, he was just more effective for a much shorter period of time. (McGwire also walked 1,317 times, conveniently ignored above.)

Should Sandy Koufax not be in the Hall of Fame because his career was short? He only started 314 games and won 165; his 165 wins are just as far short of a "traditional" benchmark of 300 wins as McGwire's 1626 hits are from the 3000 hit benchmark, but he was elected in his first year of eligibility because the writers recognized how good he was during his short career. I'm not trying to say that McGwire was as good as Koufax, I'm just saying that there's precedent for inducting players with middling counting stats but outstanding rate stats.

up until he turned 29 and got H.U.G.E., big mac was a slightly better dave kingman (more walks, that's it).


so if king kong had cheated, he would have at least held the HR record when bonds passed him (which would have made barry a bit more loved )

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

As I've said before, I think Blyleven should be in. It's not an open and closed case, but he warrants being in, especially considering some other folks that have gotten in. Previously someone had talked about how he wasn't the clear ace with the Twins during those early years, throwing out names like Goltz. Having grown up in that era following the Twins, and checking back on the stats now, he was the clear ace in the early years with the Twins, except in 1970, his first year, when Jim Perry was.

To me the thing that tips the balance is his 60 shutouts. That's just outstanding. He ranks 9th all-time, and is the only one in the top 20 for shutouts that isn't in the Hall.

If it wasn't for a guy named Nolan, who was off the charts, Blyleven would be considered the top strikeout artist of his era in the AL.

Solid points.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

up until he turned 29 and got H.U.G.E., big mac was a slightly better dave kingman (more walks, that's it).


so if king kong had cheated, he would have at least held the HR record when bonds passed him (which would have made barry a bit more loved )

McGwire was a tremendously better Dave Kingman. He had Dave Kingman's power plus actually knew how to get on base. PEDs wouldn't have taught Kingman how to take a pitch.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

McGwire was a tremendously better Dave Kingman. He had Dave Kingman's power plus actually knew how to get on base. PEDs wouldn't have taught Kingman how to take a pitch.

His job wasn't to get on base. His job was to hit home runs. If Kingman took more pitches and drew a walk, then the guy behind him made the out to end an inning, that doesn't really help his team. Sure, his numbers would be more impressive, but that wouldn't do the team much good.

This is where statistics break down. They don't take into account what role you have on your team.

 

[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

His job wasn't to get on base. His job was to hit home runs..

Everyone's job is to get on base. Epic fail.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Everyone's job is to get on base. Epic fail.

Uhhh...no, it's not. But the fact that you think that tells me a lot.

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Everyone's job is to get on base. Epic fail.

Earl Weaver sort of disagrees with you:

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[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So there are some people whose job it is to make outs? Interesting.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So there are some people whose job it is to make outs? Interesting.

The next time someone gets the sign to sacrifice I hope they go down and tell the 3rd base coach their job is to get on base.

 

[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The next time someone gets the sign to sacrifice I hope they go down and tell the 3rd base coach their job is to get on base.

Well you do know that sacrificing is dumb about 93ish percent of the time right?

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Well you do know that sacrificing is dumb about 93ish percent of the time right?

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Well you do know that sacrificing is dumb about 93ish percent of the time right?

"I can't sacrifice, coach. Some guy on a message board says it's a bad idea. Besides, in 15 years when I'm up for a vote in the Hall it will hurt my numbers. I'm going to swing away."
"No, you're going to sit on the bench and I'll send someone else up to sacrifice. Your bus to the minors leaves at 8am. Be on it."

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The next time someone gets the sign to sacrifice I hope they go down and tell the 3rd base coach their job is to get on base.

Every hitter's job is to get on base. Giving away outs by sacrifice almost always decreases the runs a team is expected to score in a given situation. (Yes, the player's "job" is also to do what his coach tells him to do regardless of whether it's a good call, but that isn't the point.)

Of course, if McGwire's job isn't to get on base, but rather is exclusively to hit home runs, then it should be pointed out that he was exceedingly good at his job (over his career he averaged one home run per 10.5 plate appearances, the best ratio of all time), and that your point about the small number of singles he had is largely irrelevant.

 

[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Earl Weaver sort of disagrees with you:

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Point taken. Although, point of OBP > Point of slugging percentage, blah blah blah.

I'm not saying home runs are bad, I'm just saying getting on base is good.

 

[redwing77]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Point taken. Although, point of OBP > Point of slugging percentage, blah blah blah.

I'm not saying home runs are bad, I'm just saying getting on base is good.

Just a question for you citing a rather unlikely, extreme scenario but still...

Team A comes up to the plate in the first inning and hits a leadoff home run. They then proceed to get no more base runners the remainder of the game (27 straight outs).

Team B gets the bases loaded every inning but then strikes out three straight times each inning for no runs.

The final score is Team A 1-0.

Which one is better? Team A had no baserunners (if you don't count the home run). Team B had 27.

If I get you correctly, Team B would be the better team that just was unlucky?

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Just a question for you citing a rather unlikely, extreme scenario but still...

Team A comes up to the plate in the first inning and hits a leadoff home run. They then proceed to get no more base runners the remainder of the game (27 straight outs).

Team B gets the bases loaded every inning but then strikes out three straight times each inning for no runs.

The final score is Team A 1-0.

Which one is better? Team A had no baserunners (if you don't count the home run). Team B had 27.

If I get you correctly, Team B would be the better team that just was unlucky?

Chances are Team B would sacrifice (meaning the batter's job is to get an out so a run could score) in one of those 9 innings.