2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

[XYZ]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

But then how can you discuss any of this? Then all we'd have is Red Sox fans saying "Jim Rice should be in the Hall of Fame" and Yankee fans saying "No he shouldn't, Don Mattingly should be in the Hall of Fame" and Mets fans saying "No he shouldn't, not if Keith Hernandez isn't in" and Braves fans saying "What are you talking about, Dale Murphy is a much worse slight than him"...

...and Joe Morgan saying "None of them should be in the Hall of Fame until Dave Concepcion is"

 

[Dude Love]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Here is the baseline: if you don't think Bert Blyleven should be in the Hall of Fame, you are a ****ing idiot. Plain and simple.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

i'll compare them before mac got juiced and returned post strike... fair enough?
(luckily enough, this is the first nine of 16 seasons for each player)

games__________990 v 1062
plate app_______4006 v 3972
bat avg_________.250 v .241
tb______________1695 v 1805
2b______________137 v 147
3b_______________5 v 20
hr______________238 v 252
rbi______________657 v 663
slg%___________.507 v .504
ops____________.869 v .808
obp____________.361 v .304
sb_______________6 v 63

----------so again, what did i type that was wrong? (more walks, that's it!)

The difference between a .304 OBP and a .361 OBP is massive, though, and I don't think you're recognizing that.

Edit to add: Handy, you're right, maybe I was misunderstanding you.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The problem seems to be a new found obsession with walks by nerd nation. Kingman and McGwire drawing walks is irrelevant. Its not their job to draw walks, and if either of them did they were probably a good bet get doubled up. Both were tasked with driving the ball somewhere to drive in runs.

OBP, OPS, etc aren't the end all be all of baseball. They may be for fantasy leagues, but not for the actual game. Rather, they are a component of, but not a peer of, the real goal of the team, scoring runs. That's why runs and RBI's are more important than walks and on base %. Not bad stats to be sure, but if you're batting 4th and your working the walk every game, and end up with 60 RBI's on the year, you're not doing your job. That's why, IIRC, no team that outscored the other one in 4 out of 7 games in a playoff series ever had their victory taken away because of a lower OPS.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The difference between a .304 OBP and a .361 OBP is massive, though, and I don't think you're recognizing that..

are you not recognizing my statement that before mac got himself big after the lockout and changed his game, he was dave kingman with more walks?!?

and yes, i realize what the difference between the two represents with their obp. over 100 plate appearances king kong got 6 fewer walks.

 

[UMDBulldogHockeyIsKing]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

That's why runs and RBI's are more important than walks and on base %.

Psssst. Those things do help you score runs. They are important.

But I do agree with the fact that the stat categories have gotten a bit ridiculous over the past 10-15 years.

 

[Patman]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The problem seems to be a new found obsession with walks by nerd nation. Kingman and McGwire drawing walks is irrelevant. Its not their job to draw walks, and if either of them did they were probably a good bet get doubled up. Both were tasked with driving the ball somewhere to drive in runs.

OBP, OPS, etc aren't the end all be all of baseball. They may be for fantasy leagues, but not for the actual game. Rather, they are a component of, but not a peer of, the real goal of the team, scoring runs. That's why runs and RBI's are more important than walks and on base %. Not bad stats to be sure, but if you're batting 4th and your working the walk every game, and end up with 60 RBI's on the year, you're not doing your job. That's why, IIRC, no team that outscored the other one in 4 out of 7 games in a playoff series ever had their victory taken away because of a lower OPS.

All you've done here is demonstrate how you don't understand the sport. It doesn't surprise me though.

Tell me, why does RBIs and runs tell us anything?

 

[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The problem seems to be a new found obsession with walks by nerd nation. Kingman and McGwire drawing walks is irrelevant. Its not their job to draw walks, and if either of them did they were probably a good bet get doubled up. Both were tasked with driving the ball somewhere to drive in runs.

OBP, OPS, etc aren't the end all be all of baseball. They may be for fantasy leagues, but not for the actual game. Rather, they are a component of, but not a peer of, the real goal of the team, scoring runs. That's why runs and RBI's are more important than walks and on base %. Not bad stats to be sure, but if you're batting 4th and your working the walk every game, and end up with 60 RBI's on the year, you're not doing your job. That's why, IIRC, no team that outscored the other one in 4 out of 7 games in a playoff series ever had their victory taken away because of a lower OPS.

Post of the year. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Post of the year. Thanks for the laugh.

NERDS!!!!!!

 

[Dude Love]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

All you've done here is demonstrate how you don't understand the sport. It doesn't surprise me though.

Tell me, why does RBIs and runs tell us anything?

Same reason why wins are the be-all-end-all of pitching statistics.

 

[TCHB]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

NERDS!!!!!!

Haha yes I am, I'll admit it.

 

[The Paragon of Virtue]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

nerd nation.

And on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Haha yes I am, I'll admit it.

And the nerd gets the pretty girl in the end. Just like real life*. Money > muscles.

(* they don't wake up until they're 28. But they do .)

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The problem seems to be a new found obsession with walks by nerd nation.

Blah blah blah blah blah. Same old crap.

are you not recognizing my statement that before mac got himself big after the lockout and changed his game, he was dave kingman with more walks?!?

OK, fair enough, but the difference between Dave Kingman and a good baseball player is the difference between OBPing .305 and .360. That's like saying "well, Pedro Martinez was just like Pascual Perez, except he struck more guys out." By saying "McGwire is Dave Kingman except with more walks" you're minimizing the difference between the two that made one a good baseball player and the other a mediocre one.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

OK, fair enough, but the difference between Dave Kingman and a good baseball player is the difference between OBPing .305 and .360. That's like saying "well, Pedro Martinez was just like Pascual Perez, except he struck more guys out." By saying "McGwire is Dave Kingman except with more walks" you're minimizing the difference between the two that made one a good baseball player and the other a mediocre one.

over 1989-90-91, mac hit .231 .235 .201 (which were his 3rd, 4th, and 5th full seasons). his manager kept him on the bench at the end of the year in 91 to prevent him from having to carry the humiliation of batting under the mendoza line on his baseball card. (and even with his superior walk totals the obp was only 339, 370, and 330 - one good year of three)

if we are just comparing 'good' to 'mediocre', i wouldn't have bothered -- but i thought you were calling the non-cheating mac hof worthy (which pedro is, vs pascual, who ain't ). very different analogy

 

[GreatLakerMohawk]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

over 1989-90-91, mac hit .231 .235 .201 (which were his 3rd, 4th, and 5th full seasons). his manager kept him on the bench at the end of the year in 91 to prevent him from having to carry the humiliation of batting under the mendoza line on his baseball card. (and even with his superior walk totals the obp was only 339, 370, and 330 - one good year of three)

if we are just comparing 'good' to 'mediocre', i wouldn't have bothered -- but i thought you were calling the non-cheating mac hof worthy (which pedro is, vs pascual, who ain't ). very different analogy

The value of walks back then certainly wasn't recognized by managers then the way it is by some, if not most, managers now. Lots of managers then viewed walks as "base clogging" not putting it together that a walk is as good as a single and that a run scored by way of someone who walked counted just as much as one by someone who got a base hit.

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

The value of walks back then certainly wasn't recognized by managers then the way it is by some, if not most, managers now. Lots of managers then viewed walks as "base clogging" not putting it together that a walk is as good as a single and that a run scored by way of someone who walked counted just as much as one by someone who got a base hit.

Agreed. I mean, would you rather serve one up to Barry Bonds and his ubersmall strike zone? Or just walk him and not risk him hitting a HR? If Bonds was on a more balanced team (with some good basic hitters behind him).....wow.

Walk = easy single.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So a modern king kong would have taken more walks and been potentially a hof worthy ballplayer?!?

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So a modern king kong would have taken more walks and been potentially a hof worthy ballplayer?!?

I suppose. I'd take a guy who hits .250 and gets a crapload of walks over a guy who hits, say, .210 and has 40HRs and 150+ Ks. (to throw out random numbers).

 

[GreatLakerMohawk]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So a modern king kong would have taken more walks and been potentially a hof worthy ballplayer?!?

No, a modern King Kong would be named Russell Branyan.