2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

But as Hammer said, baseball knew about it and didn't force the issue, so it seems hypocritical to come back and punish it now.

Actually, that's why I want some of these guys in the Hall. I want a constant reminder of just what went on this past decade. 15 years from now I want people to see Barry Bonds' bust, and if a dad is taking his kid through Cooperstown, he can tell his son about what happened during that time.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

You saw Mickey Mantle play? I am very envious. (I did see Willie Mays in his last year.)

That's great!

I saw Hank Aaron once when he was with the Brewers and they were in Minnesota playing the Twins.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

As for the steriods, I'd like to see a few of these guys end up in Cooperstown, just as a reminder of what really went on during this time period. MLB knew about the 'roids, and did nothing to try to stop it until everyone raised holy hell about it. Now baseball's got to wear it. Put Bonds in. Same with Clemens and Palmeiro, and if the numbers suit you, Sosa as well.

Palmeiro is actually the only guy tainted by this whole thing who I could see excluding. He had to do it because he was still an active player, but he went to Congress and blatantly lied about steroid use before getting busted AFTER MLB made them illegal.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

This is why I'm being harsh by eliminating every stat, as in all their numbers in any years they were roiding.

So, lets take Bonds. Too bad if we can't decide how many HR's he would have hit without juicing. That's the price he pays for cheating, so 1998-on is eliminated.

For A-Rod, if he passed the test in say 2005, I can live with taking his word that 2001-2003 were his PED seasons (I believe he failed the 2004 test, so without knowing how long the stuff stays in your system I'm assuming it'd be gone by the next year).

For Manny Ramirez, a guy who failed in 2004 and 2009, he loses all those seasons. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure he was most likely using all that time.

Now, moving on. Lets say you did lie, like Palmeiro or Tejada. Guess what - either you come clean with proof of your usage, or you're screwed. If Palmeiro only used once, or for a year's time, he needs to prove that. A paper trail, release his test results, whatever. Otherwise his whole career is in doubt. This gives the players who tried it once more incentive to give a truthful account, while the long term cheaters would all run and hide, ala McGwire.

The bottom line though is you have to have proof. A failed test, etc. I suspect a lot of players but a guy bulking up isn't evidence. Nail the known, proven cheaters and it sends a message - nobody is bigger than the game (see Rose, Pete).

PS - Regarding scumball Rose, he admitted it only when he thought it would help him out. That doesn't cut it. You only get once chance to come clean. If that idiot comes near the Hall, even if he bought a ticket, he should be dragged out back by security and beaten senseless.

 

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Palmeiro is actually the only guy tainted by this whole thing who I could see excluding. He had to do it because he was still an active player, but he went to Congress and blatantly lied about steroid use before getting busted AFTER MLB made them illegal.

And, naturally, he's the only one with both 500 bombs and 3,000 hits, both of which were usually automatics when it came to Cooperstown credentials.

 

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Guys (and girls), here's the other thing.

It's not like everyone just got clean, and the only guys that are still on juice are the ones that got busted. They're just the least intelligent. They've likely moved on to something else that isn't detected. The chemists are ahead of the tests. There's always going to be something else that someone is on. We're never getting the toothpaste back into the tube. We're going to get to a point, very, very soon, where we're going to have to judge everyone on what they did during their career, like it or not. That's why I don't put Bonds, Clemens and Co. in the Hall cheerfully, but in they go, with me plugging my nose all the way.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Well, I can tell you that for most of the 70's, Ryan got roughly somewhere slightly below jack squat for run support, as he pitched on some hideous Angel teams before being shipped off to Houston. That and he struck out half of Orange County every fourth or fifth night, and walked the other half.

My question was specifically in regard to Blyleven. Someone said he wasn't a "top pitcher" but when you look at IP, shutouts, complete games, SO and ERA that clearly was not the case. The one stat working against him is W-L and he couldn't control the Twins' batting order nor their run production.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

My question was specifically in regard to Blyleven. Someone said he wasn't a "top pitcher" but when you look at IP, shutouts, complete games, SO and ERA that clearly was not the case. The one stat working against him is W-L and he couldn't control the Twins' batting order nor their run production.

As I've said before, I think Blyleven should be in. It's not an open and closed case, but he warrants being in, especially considering some other folks that have gotten in. Previously someone had talked about how he wasn't the clear ace with the Twins during those early years, throwing out names like Goltz. Having grown up in that era following the Twins, and checking back on the stats now, he was the clear ace in the early years with the Twins, except in 1970, his first year, when Jim Perry was.

To me the thing that tips the balance is his 60 shutouts. That's just outstanding. He ranks 9th all-time, and is the only one in the top 20 for shutouts that isn't in the Hall.

If it wasn't for a guy named Nolan, who was off the charts, Blyleven would be considered the top strikeout artist of his era in the AL.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Even with the benefits of whatever he used in the past he doesn't want to talk about, he managed only 1600 hits. Reggie Jackson had almost that many singles. He's not Hall-worthy in my view.

And yet McGwire had a significantly higher career OBP. Reggie played almost 1000 more games than McGwire, of course he's going to have compiled a lot more hits. If you're disregarding the steroid issue, though, McGwire was clearly the more effective hitter of the two, he was just more effective for a much shorter period of time. (McGwire also walked 1,317 times, conveniently ignored above.)

Should Sandy Koufax not be in the Hall of Fame because his career was short? He only started 314 games and won 165; his 165 wins are just as far short of a "traditional" benchmark of 300 wins as McGwire's 1626 hits are from the 3000 hit benchmark, but he was elected in his first year of eligibility because the writers recognized how good he was during his short career. I'm not trying to say that McGwire was as good as Koufax, I'm just saying that there's precedent for inducting players with middling counting stats but outstanding rate stats.

 

[jen]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

We're going to get to a point, very, very soon, where we're going to have to judge everyone on what they did during their career, like it or not. That's why I don't put Bonds, Clemens and Co. in the Hall cheerfully, but in they go, with me plugging my nose all the way.

2013 is going to be a very interesting ballot. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are all up that year, along with Biggio and Mike Piazza. It will be interesting to see how the voting reflects attitudes toward steroid use. Palmiero is up for 2011.

 

[redwing77]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Guys (and girls), here's the other thing.

It's not like everyone just got clean, and the only guys that are still on juice are the ones that got busted. They're just the least intelligent. They've likely moved on to something else that isn't detected. The chemists are ahead of the tests. There's always going to be something else that someone is on. We're never getting the toothpaste back into the tube. We're going to get to a point, very, very soon, where we're going to have to judge everyone on what they did during their career, like it or not. That's why I don't put Bonds, Clemens and Co. in the Hall cheerfully, but in they go, with me plugging my nose all the way.

If that's the case, then Pete Rose is in.... well, probably not. Lucky for Selig, Rose's time will be up (if it isn't already)

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

And yet McGwire had a significantly higher career OBP. Reggie played almost 1000 more games than McGwire, of course he's going to have compiled a lot more hits. If you're disregarding the steroid issue, though, McGwire was clearly the more effective hitter of the two, he was just more effective for a much shorter period of time. (McGwire also walked 1,317 times, conveniently ignored above.)

Oh dear Lord. Please tell me that you are not touting the fact that a guy who couldn't out run my grandmother (if you gave him a head start) walked over 1,300 times in his career as some kind of impresive stat.

 

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

If that's the case, then Pete Rose is in.... well, probably not. Lucky for Selig, Rose's time will be up (if it isn't already)

I suppose that this is the time and the place for this debate.

According to the traditional rules, Rose's time ran out in 2006. He stopped playing in 1987, so his first ballot would have been in 1992. 15 ballots would have run his time out in 2006. However, I guarantee you that if Selig were to reinstate him today, there would be a special rule put in place by dinnertime to allow a vote on Rose before the end of the year. From there any and all bets are off, and we'd also find out a lot about the integrity of the voters.

Here's my position on Rose. He knew the rules when he did what he did. He also knew the punishment. Now he's got to serve it. He is not entitled to a reinstatement. It should be solely at MLB's discretion to even consider it. Personally, if I were commissioner, his reinstatement would be delayed at least until he draws his last breath, and for some time afterwards. To me, gambling is the Ace of Spades of rule violations when it comes to sports, infinitely more than PED's. And to me, doing it as a manager, when you have complete control of who plays, where and when, is worse than doing it as a player. Lifetime ban means lifetime ban. We can debate the spirit of Permanently Ineligible if you wish. I would also reinstate Joe Jackson before I would consider taking Rose off of the Permanently Ineligible list. I think the NFL screwed up big time when they didn't bounce Paul Hornung and Alex Karras permanently for betting on their own teams while playing. I don't want to make that same mistake here.

 

[jen]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

If that's the case, then Pete Rose is in.... well, probably not. Lucky for Selig, Rose's time will be up (if it isn't already)

I believe he already had his last chance, unless something changes. I can't find the link now, but read earlier today that banned players used to be eligible for election after 15 years (when their names would have fallen off the writers' ballot) by the Veterans' Committee, but they changed it in 2008 to say those players will never be eligible.

edit: so taking Hammer's timeline of him falling off the ballot in 2006, and the Veterans' Committee rule change in 2008, there were actually maybe 2 years when they could have, technically, elected him. And they didn't.

 

[Hammer]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Actually, according to Retrosheet, Rose played his last game in 1986, so advance everything forward one year. He was off the ballot in 2005.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I agree that Joe Jackson should come off the banned list before Rose gets any consideration.

On McGwire vs. Jackson, McGwire was very one dimensional, and very good at that one dimension. Reggie was a much more well-rounded player. I remember watching him with the A's in the 70s, and he was a good fielder, with a cannon for an arm, and had good speed on the basepaths. Plus of course his postseason heroics give him an important intangible.

 

[jen]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Here's my position on Rose. He knew the rules when he did what he did. He also knew the punishment. Now he's got to serve it. He is not entitled to a reinstatement. It should be solely at MLB's discretion to even consider it. Personally, if I were commissioner, his reinstatement would be delayed at least until he draws his last breath, and for some time afterwards. To me, gambling is the Ace of Spades of rule violations when it comes to sports, infinitely more than PED's. And to me, doing it as a manager, when you have complete control of who plays, where and when, is worse than doing it as a player. Lifetime ban means lifetime ban. We can debate the spirit of Permanently Ineligible if you wish. I would also reinstate Joe Jackson before I would consider taking Rose off of the Permanently Ineligible list. I think the NFL screwed up big time when they didn't bounce Paul Hornung and Alex Karras permanently for betting on their own teams while playing. I don't want to make that same mistake here.

If you look at the list of banned players/managers, most of them are gambling-related. Rose either didn't think he would get caught, or figured they wouldn't keep someone with his talent out of Cooperstown. I think it's important that baseball continues to send the message they do NOT forgive gambling, and it doesn't matter how many hits you have. If they reinstate Rose, they should reinstate every single player that was banned for anything gambling-related on that list.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

And yet McGwire had a significantly higher career OBP. Reggie played almost 1000 more games than McGwire, of course he's going to have compiled a lot more hits. If you're disregarding the steroid issue, though, McGwire was clearly the more effective hitter of the two, he was just more effective for a much shorter period of time. (McGwire also walked 1,317 times, conveniently ignored above.)

Should Sandy Koufax not be in the Hall of Fame because his career was short? He only started 314 games and won 165; his 165 wins are just as far short of a "traditional" benchmark of 300 wins as McGwire's 1626 hits are from the 3000 hit benchmark, but he was elected in his first year of eligibility because the writers recognized how good he was during his short career. I'm not trying to say that McGwire was as good as Koufax, I'm just saying that there's precedent for inducting players with middling counting stats but outstanding rate stats.

So we penalize Reggie for being better for longer? Yeah.

Koufax had arthritis in his pitching elbow, which cut his career short. I believe he had his best year in the year that he retired. That's a special circumstance, much like Kirby Puckett's eye injury that's beyond the player's control. Just getting older and slower and losing your reflexes doesn't get you the same consideration.

PS - Again, McGwire's "outstanding stats" are due to steroids. Not sure what isn't clear about that.

I agree that Joe Jackson should come off the banned list before Rose gets any consideration.

On McGwire vs. Jackson, McGwire was very one dimensional, and very good at that one dimension. Reggie was a much more well-rounded player. I remember watching him with the A's in the 70s, and he was a good fielder, with a cannon for an arm, and had good speed on the basepaths. Plus of course his postseason heroics give him an important intangible.

Bob, what are you doing? Don't you know already that actually watching a guy play is meaningless when compared to picking out your own favorite stat or two to compare two players, even if you born after one of them retired? You must be some old traditionalist baseball geezer who doesn't understand stats or something....

 

[jmh]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

So we penalize Reggie for being better for longer? Yeah.

Koufax had arthritis in his pitching elbow, which cut his career short. I believe he had his best year in the year that he retired. That's a special circumstance, much like Kirby Puckett's eye injury that's beyond the player's control. Just getting older and slower and losing your reflexes doesn't get you the same consideration.

PS - Again, McGwire's "outstanding stats" are due to steroids. Not sure what isn't clear about that.

I'm not "penalizing" anyone. Reggie was a deserving Hall of Famer and I doubt that you'll find anyone who would say otherwise. (Well, 27 of the 423 voters when he came up for election didn't vote for him, but I can't figure why.) On the contrary, McGwire is being penalized for being a more effective hitter but for a shorter period of time.* Not a better all-around player, when you factor in their positions, but clearly a more effective hitter.

And again, since you bring it up, McGwire was an outstanding player from 1987 to 1992, even factoring in his bad 1991, without the benefit of PEDs. Over that period his OPS was .863, which, while shy of the video game numbers he put up from 1995 to 1999, is still better than Reggie Jackson's career OPS.

* Remember, the post you're quoting here was in response to Priceless's contention that McGwire wasn't good enough for induction even if you ignored the PEDs issue. If you want to say that all performance that took place while a player was using is invalidated, that's your opinion, but that's not the basis of this line of conversation.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

And to me, doing it as a manager, when you have complete control of who plays, where and when, is worse than doing it as a player.

If I'm fixing a game, I try to get the player, not the manager. The manager has some control that will decide the outcome, but if I want to make sure the team I bet on wins, I pay off the player.