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2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
- Thread starter GreatLakerMohawk
- Start date
Slap Shot
I got nothing
How about IP, ERA, SOs and run support?
Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Well, I can tell you that for most of the 70's, Ryan got roughly somewhere slightly below jack squat for run support, as he pitched on some hideous Angel teams before being shipped off to Houston. That and he struck out half of Orange County every fourth or fifth night, and walked the other half.
Well, I can tell you that for most of the 70's, Ryan got roughly somewhere slightly below jack squat for run support, as he pitched on some hideous Angel teams before being shipped off to Houston. That and he struck out half of Orange County every fourth or fifth night, and walked the other half.
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Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
It's a peculiar statistic, I'll grant you. I'm too lazy to look it up, but how do his singles stack up against some of the other all-time HR leaders? McGwire always struck me as a Dave Kingman type hitter. Big upper cut. Lot of flyballs. Some went out, the others were caught. May explain in part the lack of doubles.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Hits, 2B, 3B, HR (Singles)
McGwire: 1626 252 6 583 (785)
Schmidt: 2234 408 59 548 (1219)
Jackson: 2584 463 49 563 (1509)
Killebrew: 2086 290 24 573 (1199)
Kingman: 1575 240 25 442 (868)
Edit: McGwire's Oakland/St Louis splits
Oak (12 years) 1157 195 5 363 (598)
StL (5 years) 469 57 1 220 (191)
Hits, 2B, 3B, HR (Singles)
McGwire: 1626 252 6 583 (785)
Schmidt: 2234 408 59 548 (1219)
Jackson: 2584 463 49 563 (1509)
Killebrew: 2086 290 24 573 (1199)
Kingman: 1575 240 25 442 (868)
Edit: McGwire's Oakland/St Louis splits
Oak (12 years) 1157 195 5 363 (598)
StL (5 years) 469 57 1 220 (191)
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Hammer
We'll be back.
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
I suppose that once upon a time I noticed that most great hitters have relatively high double totals. Aaron, Cobb, Musial, Ruth, Rose, Bonds, Mays, Williams, you get the picture. Like I said before, you would think that a power hitter, especially, will have a high double total, even if he doesn't pile up a ton of hits. The thought process there is simple. The guy hits the ball a long way, and if it doesn't go out of the park, it's going to get up the power alleys or bounce off the wall if he doesn't quite catch all of it. This holds true for nearly every hitter in the 500-homer club except McGwire. I find it extremely peculiar that even in his 50+ homer seasons (and especially in the year that he hit 70), he never got to 30 doubles. In fact, he never did it in his entire career. That just strikes me as strange. Not only that, it makes me question just how good of a hitter he is.
He comes off to me as a 1-trick pony. Most power hitters, if they don't club one 500 feet, are going to end up at 2nd base more than a few times. McGwire does not. It's either a home run, an intentional walk at the end of his career, or nothing.
I looked at the doubles rate, calculated similar to batting average (doubles/at bats) to see if I could see a pattern among the 500-homer hitters. Here's what I found:
Bonds: 6.1% of his AB were doubles
Aaron: 5.0%
Ruth: 6.0%
Mays: 4.8%
Griffey: 6.5%
Sosa: 6.9%
Frank Robinson: 5.3%
McGwire: 4.1%
A-Rod: 5.35%
Killebrew: 3.55%
Palmeiro: 5.6%
Thome: 5.3%
Reggie: 4.7%
I didn't go further than Reggie. With the exception of Killebrew, who either played in Griffith Stadium with the Senators (which was NOT a hitter's park at all) or in the pitching-friendly 1960's, where a 4-2 game was a wild shootout, everyone is roughly 15% better than McGwire. Mays' ratio surprised me, but then I realized that he had over twice as many hits as McGwire did, so I left it at that. Most of these guys are in the low-5's to just over 6. McGwire is just barely over 4.
From what I see, the bottom line is this. McGwire's totals pale in comparison to the rest of the 500 club, with the exception of Killebrew. However, Killebrew also has an MVP and there were some extenuating circumstances with his totals as well, mainly the period in which he played.
I suppose that once upon a time I noticed that most great hitters have relatively high double totals. Aaron, Cobb, Musial, Ruth, Rose, Bonds, Mays, Williams, you get the picture. Like I said before, you would think that a power hitter, especially, will have a high double total, even if he doesn't pile up a ton of hits. The thought process there is simple. The guy hits the ball a long way, and if it doesn't go out of the park, it's going to get up the power alleys or bounce off the wall if he doesn't quite catch all of it. This holds true for nearly every hitter in the 500-homer club except McGwire. I find it extremely peculiar that even in his 50+ homer seasons (and especially in the year that he hit 70), he never got to 30 doubles. In fact, he never did it in his entire career. That just strikes me as strange. Not only that, it makes me question just how good of a hitter he is.
He comes off to me as a 1-trick pony. Most power hitters, if they don't club one 500 feet, are going to end up at 2nd base more than a few times. McGwire does not. It's either a home run, an intentional walk at the end of his career, or nothing.
I looked at the doubles rate, calculated similar to batting average (doubles/at bats) to see if I could see a pattern among the 500-homer hitters. Here's what I found:
Bonds: 6.1% of his AB were doubles
Aaron: 5.0%
Ruth: 6.0%
Mays: 4.8%
Griffey: 6.5%
Sosa: 6.9%
Frank Robinson: 5.3%
McGwire: 4.1%
A-Rod: 5.35%
Killebrew: 3.55%
Palmeiro: 5.6%
Thome: 5.3%
Reggie: 4.7%
I didn't go further than Reggie. With the exception of Killebrew, who either played in Griffith Stadium with the Senators (which was NOT a hitter's park at all) or in the pitching-friendly 1960's, where a 4-2 game was a wild shootout, everyone is roughly 15% better than McGwire. Mays' ratio surprised me, but then I realized that he had over twice as many hits as McGwire did, so I left it at that. Most of these guys are in the low-5's to just over 6. McGwire is just barely over 4.
From what I see, the bottom line is this. McGwire's totals pale in comparison to the rest of the 500 club, with the exception of Killebrew. However, Killebrew also has an MVP and there were some extenuating circumstances with his totals as well, mainly the period in which he played.
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jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
I'm not clear on what time period you're saying you want to use as predictive of how his career would play out, since you "1 bad season, 1 good season, 1 injured season, and one not so good season in the strike year" referring to 1991-1994, but then you say "this period of time is more recent than his rookie year to 1992" which would seem to imply only 1993-94. It should be pointed out, though, that his numbers in 1994 were pretty close to the ones in 1990 I was using earlier. The trouble of trying to make a projection based on those few seasons is that 1993 was very abbreviated due to injury and 1994 due to the strike, so it's tough to say how to weight them as compared to 1991 and 1992, which were less recent but full-length.
You mean except for the part where you call everyone who disagrees with you a nerd, over and over and over?Don't remember calling you out specifically, but anyway...
But so what if his career was over in 2001? He was 37, that's a perfectly normal time for a career to be winding down, and I don't see it as unreasonable to believe that he'd have a normal-length career.
I'm not clear on what time period you're saying you want to use as predictive of how his career would play out, since you "1 bad season, 1 good season, 1 injured season, and one not so good season in the strike year" referring to 1991-1994, but then you say "this period of time is more recent than his rookie year to 1992" which would seem to imply only 1993-94. It should be pointed out, though, that his numbers in 1994 were pretty close to the ones in 1990 I was using earlier. The trouble of trying to make a projection based on those few seasons is that 1993 was very abbreviated due to injury and 1994 due to the strike, so it's tough to say how to weight them as compared to 1991 and 1992, which were less recent but full-length.
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
McGwire: .394, .588, .982, 162
Schmidt: .380, .527, .908, 147
Jackson: .356, .490, .846, 139
Killebrew: .376, .509, .884, 143
Kingman: .302, .478, .780, 115
Kingman doesn't even belong in the same discussion.
OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+
McGwire: .394, .588, .982, 162
Schmidt: .380, .527, .908, 147
Jackson: .356, .490, .846, 139
Killebrew: .376, .509, .884, 143
Kingman: .302, .478, .780, 115
Kingman doesn't even belong in the same discussion.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
I didn't bring up Kingman, I threw him in for comparison because someone else mentioned him. McGwire's numbers don't impress me even without the steroids. Add those to the mix and the only way he should get into the Hall is to buy a ticket.
Good thing he had steroids to help him recover from that injury.
I didn't bring up Kingman, I threw him in for comparison because someone else mentioned him. McGwire's numbers don't impress me even without the steroids. Add those to the mix and the only way he should get into the Hall is to buy a ticket.
Good thing he had steroids to help him recover from that injury.
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jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you brought up Kingman, I was just pointing out that the numbers back up what I said earlier.
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Exactly.
jmh, people can disagree with me all day. I reserve the riducule for people who think looking in a stat book tells them more about a player's worthiness for the Hall than people who watched them play for most or all of their careers. I'll let you answer whether or not you're one of those people, because frankly a lot of you make the same arguments so its tough to tell you apart.
Exactly.
jmh, people can disagree with me all day. I reserve the riducule for people who think looking in a stat book tells them more about a player's worthiness for the Hall than people who watched them play for most or all of their careers. I'll let you answer whether or not you're one of those people, because frankly a lot of you make the same arguments so its tough to tell you apart.
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
So knowing what a guy did < watching someone and having no idea? Nice logic.
Exactly.
jmh, people can disagree with me all day. I reserve the riducule for people who think looking in a stat book tells them more about a player's worthiness for the Hall than people who watched them play for most or all of their careers. I'll let you answer whether or not you're one of those people, because frankly a lot of you make the same arguments so its tough to tell you apart.
So knowing what a guy did < watching someone and having no idea? Nice logic.
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Of which andro was one, and was a legal one.
I'm not saying whether he should be in or not, but the steroids arguments must take into account the PEDs that were legal at the time (even in the sport's sub-laws, which sometimes go against "real" laws), the stats acquired without allegedly (or proven) have taken steroids, etc etc.
If one has HOF numbers without steroid proof, then so be it. Frankly, that's one more reason to officially release The List. That way, people know how the stats may/may not have been tainted.
Of which andro was one, and was a legal one.
I'm not saying whether he should be in or not, but the steroids arguments must take into account the PEDs that were legal at the time (even in the sport's sub-laws, which sometimes go against "real" laws), the stats acquired without allegedly (or proven) have taken steroids, etc etc.
If one has HOF numbers without steroid proof, then so be it. Frankly, that's one more reason to officially release The List. That way, people know how the stats may/may not have been tainted.
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
I'm sorry, but that's nothing more than a cop-out intended to preclude people from disagreeing with you.jmh, people can disagree with me all day. I reserve the riducule for people who think looking in a stat book tells them more about a player's worthiness for the Hall than people who watched them play for most or all of their careers. I'll let you answer whether or not you're one of those people, because frankly a lot of you make the same arguments so its tough to tell you apart.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
Well, steroids are a controlled substance and you need to have a valid prescription from a licensed doctor...
Commissioner Fay Vincent sent the reminder that steroids were verboten. Sure, there was no way to test players because the union successfully rebuked any efforts to establish testing (but let's be honest, ownership wasn't exactly clamoring for testing before Congress got involved) so there's no way of knowing what happened. But it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to consider that McGwire was struggling, was injured and was on his way out of the game and then magically resurrected his career...some may think it was hard work; I think it was hard work with an assist from a needle - one that was illegal.
All that being said, his numbers sans steroids don't strike me as Hall-worthy anyway.
Of course, this doesn't address the issue of amphetamines, which were handed out like candy in the old days...
Of which andro was one, and was a legal one.
I'm not saying whether he should be in or not, but the steroids arguments must take into account the PEDs that were legal at the time (even in the sport's sub-laws, which sometimes go against "real" laws), the stats acquired without allegedly (or proven) have taken steroids, etc etc.
If one has HOF numbers without steroid proof, then so be it. Frankly, that's one more reason to officially release The List. That way, people know how the stats may/may not have been tainted.
Well, steroids are a controlled substance and you need to have a valid prescription from a licensed doctor...
Commissioner Fay Vincent sent the reminder that steroids were verboten. Sure, there was no way to test players because the union successfully rebuked any efforts to establish testing (but let's be honest, ownership wasn't exactly clamoring for testing before Congress got involved) so there's no way of knowing what happened. But it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to consider that McGwire was struggling, was injured and was on his way out of the game and then magically resurrected his career...some may think it was hard work; I think it was hard work with an assist from a needle - one that was illegal.
All that being said, his numbers sans steroids don't strike me as Hall-worthy anyway.
Of course, this doesn't address the issue of amphetamines, which were handed out like candy in the old days...
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
There are a number of different steroids, though.
While andro was legal (and probably could have masked other PEDs), it was a steroid, and him taking it was legit. Now, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there was a hullaballoo about andro, so he stopped taking it, and kept his numbers. Due to your point about the non-testing, giving up andro may have been for "show" and the other PEDs were going on.
We all have our suspicions, but unless there is proof, we've got nothing. It's really sad, too. A generation of question marks and doubts, justly or unjustly.
There are a number of different steroids, though.
While andro was legal (and probably could have masked other PEDs), it was a steroid, and him taking it was legit. Now, and please correct me if I'm wrong, there was a hullaballoo about andro, so he stopped taking it, and kept his numbers. Due to your point about the non-testing, giving up andro may have been for "show" and the other PEDs were going on.
We all have our suspicions, but unless there is proof, we've got nothing. It's really sad, too. A generation of question marks and doubts, justly or unjustly.
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
I'm confused by what you mean by "without steroids" here. Do you mean that his numbers before people generally believe he started using, if extrapolated out over a full career, would not be Hall-worthy? Or that his numbers, as they are, are not Hall-worthy even if the steroid issue were to be disregarded?
state of hockey
He fixes the cable?
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
They mean nothing. Didn't you know that baseball is a one man sport?
They mean nothing. Didn't you know that baseball is a one man sport?
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
It's all about VORP, OPS+, TRON, and GRIT.
It's all about VORP, OPS+, TRON, and GRIT.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class
These two points are the most relevant...first of all I dont think he warrants being in the Hall just based on the numbers. I love McGwire but the Haall is supposed to be for the best of the best and he isn't/wasn't IMHO. I won't lie, I am starting to come around against Bert too for much the same reason.
But...if it is just the andro that is the reason some people think he should be let in then let him in. Dont give me the "it was illegal" BS because baseball turned blind eyes to all sorts of illegal stuff by lots of people who are in the Hall right now. Andro was not banned specifically by the MLB so they don't have a leg to stand on.
They reaped what they sowed with this whole mess...
These two points are the most relevant...first of all I dont think he warrants being in the Hall just based on the numbers. I love McGwire but the Haall is supposed to be for the best of the best and he isn't/wasn't IMHO. I won't lie, I am starting to come around against Bert too for much the same reason.
But...if it is just the andro that is the reason some people think he should be let in then let him in. Dont give me the "it was illegal" BS because baseball turned blind eyes to all sorts of illegal stuff by lots of people who are in the Hall right now. Andro was not banned specifically by the MLB so they don't have a leg to stand on.
They reaped what they sowed with this whole mess...