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Worst Frozen Four Ever

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

But the NCAA looks at this with a wider viewpoint than we do as pure hockey fans. They also want to make more money, enable more access and gain larger exposure for the sport, beyond just haveing good playing conditions.

I am looking at it from a wider perspective. The NCAA ought to be happy it has a core group of "pure hockey fans" who are willing to travel to any venue to watch the Frozen Four every year, because the sport itself doesn't seem to be sustaining its existence as well as it used to. Some programs have folded up over the last few years. Attendance issues seem to be more prevalent even in hockey hotbeds than they used to be, etc. There's certainly no problem with "access" for the NCAA regional round when most venues over the last couple of years are not even functioning at half capacity. So thinking that this sport is ever going to become widespread or popular enough to really bother "increasing awareness" as opposed to maintaining what they have, and improving upon, their current "model" is just baffling to me. The demand for this sport really isn't there outside of traditional regions where the game is played and watched. Look at the history of professional and collegiate hockey in terms of popularity, ratings, attendance, etc. -- the college game is a regional one and that's never going to change.

Outside of selling more tickets and making money (which, I'd be interested to know, how much more profit they really made since there was more "production" involved in staging this Frozen Four), the main reason they did this was basically for publicity, no? And what kind of publicity did it generate -- scores of articles, discussion and even ESPN announcers like Gary Thorne bad-mouthing it on a national telecast that I'm going to guess delivered no more "casual fans" than it would if it were held anywhere else?

Irritating the very core group of fans who go to great expense to travel to venues every year, not to mention making your "showcase" Frozen Four less than optimal from a sheer performance standpoint because the ice isn't good enough -- just seems to be an ill-conceived notion. I would disagree holding it in Detroit did anything for the game's "awareness" and "access." The sport can't even fill half a venue for its prior playoff round in most parts of the country -- where the game IS played.

I think the NCAA looked at this as a trial, to see how it would work, etc. I highly doubt it's going to be attempted again anytime in the near future, thankfully.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

One interesting thing on the ice conditions was how BAD it apparently was on Wednesday. Had the weather not cooperated and they ended up with ice like it was the day prior to the event, it's entirely possible we would've had another Cinci on our hands.

i went down to ff on wednesday afternoon during the wisconsin practice and was standing right at the glass, and the ice looked HORRIBLE... it looked like glorified pond ice at best... there were noticeable depressions and raised patches where the ice hadn't frozen evenly... when players cut hard, the ice was chipping and getting badly rutted... watching wisco doing a breakaway drill was awful... at one point 7 straight players had the puck jump up on them as they stickhandled through the slot... pucks were leaping up as they were fired around the boards, etc... the ice was beyond hard...

i heard that they change in humidity on wednesday played hell with the ice and they were fortunate that it cooled off for thursday, but who knows how much better it had gotten... the detroit free press quoted RIT players as saying that the ice was horrible after their practice...
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Talked to a skills comp player and she said the ice was just straight up horrid. Worst she had experienced in her life playing hockey. Of course she grew up in Northern MN so her ice was probably always awesome growing up.

She said it went soft-hard-soft and you never knew what the next patch would be like. They'd zamboni and they'd be all new pitfalls, all the places you learned about? They might be fine now, but the ones you liked before? Now they're bad.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Child, please.

That's like some Tampa Rays fan talking smack about how great the AL East is.

AL East = Yankees, Red Sox, usually sucky teams
Hockey East = BC, BU, usually sucky teams

And don't give me "Maine" this or "UNH" that. Maine has been irrelevant since Shawn Walsh stopped coaching and we all know what UNH stands for (hint: H = "Hardware").

Every now and then a Lowell or a Providence steps up to near-greatness when they get a few truly talented players, but they revert to also-rans quickly. BC and BU get the pick of the New England litter just like Minnesota did with Minnesota HS talent until SCSU, UM-D, and MSU-M started siphoning off some (*some*) of the talent. If the current WCHA and current HEA were to play round-robin home-and-home series, I seriously doubt HEA's overall winning percentage would be close to 0.500. And without BC and BU's record it would probably be closer to 0.333.

Hockey East has had a team in the NCAA final every year since 1996 except 2005. How is Hockey East a bad conference exactly?
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Once again, ESPN does not BID on this event. The NCAA basically FORCES them to take it in return for maintaining their TV rights to things that people actually want to watch, like big time college football and basketball.

Yes, they do. Now the fact that they only made the bid to get the women's basketball tournament and the College World Series is a wholly separate issue, but ESPN bid for and won what amounts to essentially the entire NCAA championship package minus the men's basketball tournament. As part of said bid they are likely obligated to show events they otherwise wouldn't show, like the women's bowling championship and, sadly, the Frozen Four.

The regular season football/basketball packages have nothing to do with it. Those are gotten on a conference by conference and bowl-by-bowl basis.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Yes, they do. Now the fact that they only made the bid to get the women's basketball tournament and the College World Series is a wholly separate issue, but ESPN bid for and won what amounts to essentially the entire NCAA championship package minus the men's basketball tournament.

The regular season football/basketball packages have nothing to do with it. Those are gotten on a conference by conference and bowl-by-bowl basis.
How is it a separate issue? Seems to me they are inextricably linked.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I am looking at it from a wider perspective. The NCAA ought to be happy it has a core group of "pure hockey fans" who are willing to travel to any venue to watch the Frozen Four every year, because the sport itself doesn't seem to be sustaining its existence as well as it used to. Some programs have folded up over the last few years. Attendance issues seem to be more prevalent even in hockey hotbeds than they used to be, etc. There's certainly no problem with "access" for the NCAA regional round when most venues over the last couple of years are not even functioning at half capacity. So thinking that this sport is ever going to become widespread or popular enough to really bother "increasing awareness" as opposed to maintaining what they have, and improving upon, their current "model" is just baffling to me. The demand for this sport really isn't there outside of traditional regions where the game is played and watched. Look at the history of professional and collegiate hockey in terms of popularity, ratings, attendance, etc. -- the college game is a regional one and that's never going to change.

Outside of selling more tickets and making money (which, I'd be interested to know, how much more profit they really made since there was more "production" involved in staging this Frozen Four), the main reason they did this was basically for publicity, no? And what kind of publicity did it generate -- scores of articles, discussion and even ESPN announcers like Gary Thorne bad-mouthing it on a national telecast that I'm going to guess delivered no more "casual fans" than it would if it were held anywhere else?

Irritating the very core group of fans who go to great expense to travel to venues every year, not to mention making your "showcase" Frozen Four less than optimal from a sheer performance standpoint because the ice isn't good enough -- just seems to be an ill-conceived notion. I would disagree holding it in Detroit did anything for the game's "awareness" and "access." The sport can't even fill half a venue for its prior playoff round in most parts of the country -- where the game IS played.

I think the NCAA looked at this as a trial, to see how it would work, etc. I highly doubt it's going to be attempted again anytime in the near future, thankfully.

Good points.

Hockey is a regional sport. But if the NCAA doesn't stop trying to broaden the appeal, the sport will continue retreat into it's own declining base and stop growing altogether and that's bad. That's why you see the occasional non-hotbed cities hosting, and non-tradtional concepts like this being tried out. Without some risk, there is atrophy.

When I went to my first Frozen Four in 1986, college hockey couldn't come close to selling out the Providence Civic Center (12,000 seats), even with a team from an hour away (Harvard) in the final game. The most exciting thing to happen other than the game was zamboni breakdown and the Providence College Zamboni being driven down the highway with a police escort to save the day. There was little sense of "event" beyond fans from around the country drinking in Murphy's Bar in Providence.

By the late 90s, the growth of hockey as a TV sport had the Frozen Four was selling out NHL arenas, and the hockey game became an "event" with other activities beyond just hockey games. Families began to plan vacations around it. Ticket lotteries sprung up to reward loyalty and to give people a shot at tickets. It has been contractual sellouts at all Frozen Fours up until this year. The Frozen Four is now a showcase event that will sellout any hockey arena in North America due to demand. This time around, the NCAA was dabbling with a larger concept, and they had 37,000 to buy tickets, or about twice the size of many NHL arenas. What this showed is that to see a Frozen Four, there is demand for this event beyond an NHL arena. I think they will go back to this concept at some point, assuming they learn from the mistakes they made in Detroit.

Regionals are an entirely different animal, made up primarily of hard core fans within easy driving distance. There is little sense of "event" at a regional, and those really won't grow unless there is more time to sell tickets and plan travel. They should move the bye week before the Frozen Four to after the conference tourney's to help the regionals grow.

And yes, our sport had a boom in the 90s with a lot of new buildings and TV energy, but a tough economy and Title IX continues to strangle our growth at the program level. Until those two things change, we won't see many new programs.
 
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Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

How is it a separate issue? Seems to me they are inextricably linked.


He said ESPN didn't bid on the event. Factually, they did bid on the event.

ESPN's reasons for doing so (wanting other parts of the package) don't change the factual conclusion that they did bid on the event.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

He said ESPN didn't bid on the event. Factually, they did bid on the event.

ESPN's reasons for doing so (wanting other parts of the package) don't change the factual conclusion that they did bid on the event.


I believe when the Chicago area NASCAR track (Joliet?) opened, they required fans to purchase tickets to an IRL event if they wanted "season" tickets to all of their NASCAR events. It is the same idea. Nearly every one of the fans who were forced to "purchase" IRL tickets had no desire to go to the open wheel event, knew little about that sport, and stayed away in droves. I'm sure they considered the $$$ they spent on the IRL tickets simply part of the price for their NASCAR tickets. How ESPN obtains the rights to some of the things they show that they WANT to show (in other words that get decent ratings) is pretty much the same thing. They bid on things they want, the NCAA forces them to take a few they don't. At no time does anyone from ESPN ask the NCAA how much $$$ they need to pay to show college hockey.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Without some risk, there is atrophy.

I agree, risk taking is necessary for growth. But it should probably not come at the expense of the games themselves. I believe the games suffered for being in a large football stadium, as opposed to an NHL hockey arena. At some point, making an ice rink in a temporary setting may be perfected. Until that time, I don't think it should be attempted in a venue like this again.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

He said ESPN didn't bid on the event. Factually, they did bid on the event.

ESPN's reasons for doing so (wanting other parts of the package) don't change the factual conclusion that they did bid on the event.

You know that for sure, or are you making an assumption. How do you know it didn't go like this?

ESPN: We want Women's Basketball.
NCAA: Well, then you have to take Men's Hockey.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

You know that for sure, or are you making an assumption. How do you know it didn't go like this?

ESPN: We want Women's Basketball.
NCAA: Well, then you have to take Men's Hockey.

Because when it happened, the NCAA basically packaged everything but the men's tourny into one giant contract. Winner take all.

There's a reason you don't see any national championships on any station other than ESPN (or its family of networks), except for men's hoops. If the NCAA piece-mealed it, you'd see some random ones on FSN or NBC.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I've been to Seven D1 FF's and two of the D3 final's. Ford Field was the worst. Sight lines were bad, too far away for the price of the ticket. PA system was poor, crowd noise, participation was non-existant, with the exception of the entertainment provided by RIT fans. If the NCAA goes the football type venue again, I will stay home. Keep it in a hockey arena. I should have saved the time and expense and stayed home. Detroit tried hard, but please NCAA, don't try this again.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

We are hockey purists and want our event held on the best possible ice, with the best sightlines and loudest possible crowd noise. That's what we want. We are hockey fans, and we expect the NCAA to honor our wishes.

But the NCAA looks at this with a wider viewpoint than we do as pure hockey fans. They also want to make more money, enable more access and gain larger exposure for the sport, beyond just haveing good playing conditions.

Money wise, I expect this will clear a good profit as it always does. Even with the extra expenses, they should be offset by increased attendence.

From an access standpoint, the event did offer an opportunity for about 20,000 new people to get in and see the event that probably would not have seen it live had it been held in a hockey arena, That's also a net positive. Some of those people will have had a bad experience, but I'm sure it would be no different than those who watch NCAA hoops in domed stadium.

Finally from an exposure standpoint, it was a mixed bag. The semis looked kind of half-empty and dismal, but the final looked pretty full. I think the NCAA will tout the record crowd as proof-positive that bigger venues are a future option for the tourney, and it will draw some crdibility as a growing event.

All in all, I don't think the event will be seen as a failure. I think it will be seen as a moderate success (with some warts, to be sure).

The key difference is that you can do these kinds of things to increase exposure with basketball by putting it in a football stadium without harming the actual gameplay.

You can't make the same statement here. What the NCAA did would be like asking basketball players, after an entire season of playing games on hardwood, to play their championship matches on old, chipped up asphalt from the playground.

I was one who was open to the idea of doing this at Ford Field. And, aside from the major gaffe with the riser angle, I don't think it failed. It did, however, put innovation above the essential basics of operating a championship hockey tournament. If it ever happens again, they need to do a much better job at maintaining the ice surface. They need to have the ice in weeks in advance, just as the NHL did at Fenway.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

The key difference is that you can do these kinds of things to increase exposure with basketball by putting it in a football stadium without harming the actual gameplay.

You can't make the same statement here. What the NCAA did would be like asking basketball players, after an entire season of playing games on hardwood, to play their championship matches on old, chipped up asphalt from the playground.

I was one who was open to the idea of doing this at Ford Field. And, aside from the major gaffe with the riser angle, I don't think it failed. It did, however, put innovation above the essential basics of operating a championship hockey tournament. If it ever happens again, they need to do a much better job at maintaining the ice surface. They need to have the ice in weeks in advance, just as the NHL did at Fenway.
I think you nailed it...first and foremost this is a championship event. The quality of the ice should be top notch. I realize at previous frozen four's the ice has been bad but **** happens. There was no excuse for the NCAA to not have the ice in Ford Field weeks in advance, get the kinks worked out...
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I think you nailed it...first and foremost this is a championship event. The quality of the ice should be top notch. I realize at previous frozen four's the ice has been bad but **** happens. There was no excuse for the NCAA to not have the ice in Ford Field weeks in advance, get the kinks worked out...

Ice conditions will vary - that's just part of hockey. However, arenas that are built to make ice and keep ice on a regular basis (NHL, AHL, and college rinks) will have far fewer variables than a Ford Field set-up.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

They should move the bye week before the Frozen Four to after the conference tourney's to help the regionals grow.

That's not reasonable unless they move the Frozen Four to Friday-Sunday. And even then, it's dicey for Sunday regional winners.


Powers &8^]
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

There was no excuse for the NCAA to not have the ice in Ford Field weeks in advance, get the kinks worked out...
I agree with this. I was surprised to see them not building up ice until a few days before the event (I think I read some where they started putting the ice in on the 5th...other parts of the construction were laid down before that).

Even the regional in Ft Wayne took more time to make sure they had good ice. That ice surface was melted down and painted to cover up ads/put in NCAA logo and then rebuilt. The crew there gave it a good 10 days and had some other skating events on it to make sure the quality was acceptable. There was a good article somewhere on the work that Ft Wayne did to prepare for their regional.
 
Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Even the regional in Ft Wayne took more time to make sure they had good ice. That ice surface was melted down and painted to cover up ads/put in NCAA logo and then rebuilt. The crew there gave it a good 10 days and had some other skating events on it to make sure the quality was acceptable. There was a good article somewhere on the work that Ft Wayne did to prepare for their regional.

Yeah, and that worked out great: http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100327/BLOGS11/100329560
 
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