Worst Frozen Four Ever

[Charles de Gaulle]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Because of the 37K tix sold for the Championship game, I believe that the NCAA will pull this stunt again in the not to distant future. 2013 is the next open date that doesn't have a city designated yet to host the Frozen Four. I don't think a dome stadium city will get the bid, I'm guessing maybe Boston since it will be 9 years since they last hosted.

Lets take a look at the cities that have domed stadiums that can host the Frozen Four.
1) Atlanta - I guess Huntsville can host
2) Dallas - a billion $ stadium with 90K plus attendance possibility $$$, not sure who would host.
3) Detroit - actually 2 facilities but Pontiac is probably out of the question, so just 1 Ford Field,
4) Houston -3 possibilities, Reliant Stadium, Minute Maid Stadium (Baseball), Astrodome- to old so really just 1. Again not sure who would host.
5) Indy -Maybe the CCHA hosts or Notre Dame
6) Milwaukee - once again baseball stadium but games have been played in outdoor baseball stadiums. Wisconsin host.
7) Minneapolis - UMn host
8) New Orleans - Host School?
9) Phoenix - 2 dome stadiums one baseball - Host School? NHL franchise struggling
10) San Antonio - Host School?
11) Seattle - Host School?
12) St Louis - Host School? I know the CCHA is hosting the regionals in 2011
13) Tampa - Huntsville is host in 2012.
14) Syracuse - ECAC

I see Minneapolis, Detroit, Milwaukee, Syracuse as being in or very close to college hockey teams followed by Indy. Would the NCAA have drawn 37K say if they were in Phoenix this year? I don't know for sure. I'm guessing that Ford Field being close to many of the CCHA teams helped attendance. Also I did notice more badger fans on Saturday night than on Thurs. credit to badger fans for traveling, they normally do travel well, I'm guessing many of those fans drove. I don't know if that would've worked if the games were in Phoenix.
I guess it's a good thing that there aren't a lot of domed stadiums in college hockey cities/states. So this experiment won't be happening on a regular schedule like basketball.

 

[MichFan]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I see Minneapolis, Detroit, Milwaukee, Syracuse as being in or very close to college hockey teams followed by Indy.

Agreed on Minneapolis, Detroit, Syracuse. Indy is close to a lot of places, but isn't a hockey town--no NHL team, only Notre Dame with a college hockey team in the state (with a relatively small fan base). Milwaukee wouldn't be a problem for attendance, but I don't know how well it would work in a baseball stadium. A standard 200 foot rink fits naturally in a football end zone because a football field is 160 feet wide and, with sideline space, you're usually right around 200 feet.

 

[Onion Man]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Syracuse? Are you kidding?

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Because of the 37K tix sold for the Championship game, I believe that the NCAA will pull this stunt again in the not to distant future.

I'm not all that convinced. They had to steeply discount tickets to get that many; how many were actually sold at the full price? Sales of 37k tix at $40 a pop brings in less than $2 MM, while sales of 20k tix at $200 a pop brings in $4 MM. Considering the iffy reviews on top of that, I question just how much of a moneymaker a repeat would be.

2013 is the next open date that doesn't have a city designated yet to host the Frozen Four. I don't think a dome stadium city will get the bid, I'm guessing maybe Boston since it will be 9 years since they last hosted.

I don't think there's even a bid for another non-hockey venue in the next round. It certainly won't be awarded in the absence of a bid.

(As far as Boston goes... they didn't just get rejected in the last round of awards, they got rebuked for the casualness of their bid. There were issues in 2004, and I wouldn't be surprised if Boston doesn't get an award in this block.)

 

[STATEdude3]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

A baseball dome would never work due to the timing in relation to opening day. Also,if you thought sightlines were bad for football,just imagine how they would be in the lower bowl of a baseball stadium!!

 

[Priceless]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I'm not all that convinced. They had to steeply discount tickets to get that many; how many were actually sold at the full price? Sales of 37k tix at $40 a pop brings in less than $2 MM, while sales of 20k tix at $200 a pop brings in $4 MM. Considering the iffy reviews on top of that, I question just how much of a moneymaker a repeat would be.

Yeah, but they can sell 10k tix at $200 and 25k at $40 ($50 or whatever) and that will make 3M+

The question is if they can still sell 10K to a football stadium...

 

[waterlover]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

They sold about 24,000 tickets at full price the rest were discounted or free.

I was 13 rows behind the BC/UW band on Thursday and in the same seats on Saturday. We were about 50 feet from the ice and unable to see about 1/5 of the ice along the penalty box side because we were too far to the side. How can the Target Center in Minneapolis host a high school section championship game and a UW/UM game (total attendance for both nights of around 28,000) and they were able to afford to rent seemless glass yet the Frozen Four with SIGNIFICANTLY higher prices and more people attending can't have seemless glass?

Doesn't matter where the Frozen Four is held, I'll go, but I'll only purchase 1 ticket to maintain priority and I won't go into the "stadium" if they hold it in a similar facility again. I'll take the $ I save on tickets and watch the game at the bar where I can watch hockey how hockey was meant to be watched, WITH A BEER.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Don't forget that many of the tickets were sold in three game packages. I think a three million dollar gate revenue figure for the weekend is about right, with most ancillary revenue going to the host. I figure tourney expenses were probably about 1 to 1,5 million, leaving the NCAA with a profit of about $1.5 million if they played their cards right.

Other NCAA tourneys net about $1m in profits, so Detroit likely made more, but also cost more, due to a $250k=$300K portable ice tab that hockey rinks would not need to recoup.

We'll see what the final tally was later, but this tourney should have ended up about $500k more profitable than hockey-rink NCAA tourneys.

 

[glazewsr]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

From 4/11/2010 post in this thread about 7:00 PM:

based on.....??

Based on the KRACH for this season and my (admittedly feeble) memory of KRACH rankings at the end of recently completed seasons.

KRACH ain't perfect - but it's as close as I think you'll get. It doesn't (to my knowledge) take into account ... ummm ... well "vector" for lack of a better term. Take this year for example: I don't think there's much doubt that BC was playing their best hockey of the year at the end whereas Denver was probably playing close to their worst, but KRACH takes the whole season as equally weighted (I think).

I interpret KRACH to answer the question "if these two teams played on a neutral site, who is most likely to win?" (Note: *most likely* not *assured*!!) Using a criterion of Higher KRACH = most likely to win, and assuming that "upsets" equal out, a round-robin of THIS YEAR'S (which is what I said, not looking forward) HEA teams vs WCHA teams gives the WCHA a 63-37 record.

 

[blockski]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

Lets take a look at the cities that have domed stadiums that can host the Frozen Four.
1) Atlanta - I guess Huntsville can host
2) Dallas - a billion $ stadium with 90K plus attendance possibility $$$, not sure who would host.
3) Detroit - actually 2 facilities but Pontiac is probably out of the question, so just 1 Ford Field,
4) Houston -3 possibilities, Reliant Stadium, Minute Maid Stadium (Baseball), Astrodome- to old so really just 1. Again not sure who would host.
5) Indy -Maybe the CCHA hosts or Notre Dame
6) Milwaukee - once again baseball stadium but games have been played in outdoor baseball stadiums. Wisconsin host.
7) Minneapolis - UMn host
8) New Orleans - Host School?
9) Phoenix - 2 dome stadiums one baseball - Host School? NHL franchise struggling
10) San Antonio - Host School?
11) Seattle - Host School?
12) St Louis - Host School? I know the CCHA is hosting the regionals in 2011
13) Tampa - Huntsville is host in 2012.
14) Syracuse - ECAC

Cross off all the baseball stadiums. No way would MLB allow that so close to opening day. Furthermore, all of those are grass stadiums - it's one thing to put a rink on the field for New Years Day when the grass is dormant, but they'd never allow it prior to the season. Furthermore, SafeCo Field in Seattle is only covered by a roof, it isn't enclosed. Climate control would be impossible. Scratch Seattle, Tampa, Milwaukee, one of Houston's, one of PHX's.

Cross off all the stadiums without college hockey teams directly adjacent. The NCAA has to pull strings to fill up Ford Field in the heart of the CCHA - yet even NHL buildings in St Louis and Columbus had very soft demand. That rules out Houston, Dallas, PHX, Atlanta, San Antonio, and St. Louis.

That leaves 4 even remotely plausible locations - Minneapolis, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Syracuse. Of those, Detroit is the best of them in terms of location relative to college hockey schools, quality of the football facility, hockey history, and general hosting amenities (airport, hotels, etc). Syracuse dies with hosting amenities and facility quality before even touching on potential demand. Minneapolis dies on facility quality, especially with the X down the road (does anyone really think that if Detroit had the X instead of Joe Louis that Ford Field would have ever gotten off the ground?), Indianapolis has a serious demand issue, having never hosted a college hockey event. Detroit is the only truly plausible location for this kind of stunt, and given that it didn't go so well this time around (certainly not a slam dunk to do this again anytime soon), I doubt we'll see it happen anytime in the near future.

 

[Clifton]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

One comment/question about the title of this thread: For the old-timers around here, do people really think that the overall Frozen Four experience was worse this year than in Cincinnati in 1996? From my point of view (and as stated by many others on the board over the past few weeks), the overall experience comes down to three things: the fan experience outside of the games, the facility itself, and the games. Looking at each individually:

- Fan experience: IMHO, there is no question that Detroit was far ahead of Cinci in this regard. My most memorable non-game experience in Cinci was hundreds of people storming a grossly understaffed Skyline Chili between semifinal games, because there was just about nothing else around the arena. The event was a non-event in the city, and virtually no preparations were made to make people feel welcome. The comments on this thread and others about Detroit, on the other hand, are very positive, with plenty to do around the venue, a host organization that made a real effort to welcome people, etc.
- The facility: Cinci wins, but by a much closer margin than you would expect. Other than the fact that the arena was a basketball/hockey facility, it had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The food was awful, the seats were ripped, a Zamboni broke down before the first game even began, and, if I recall correctly, the facility staff had a touch of a problem with the ice . Ford Field was the opposite--the "smaller" things were very good. It was the "big" ones that were the problem
- The games themselves: In terms of excitment, of course Cinci wins. Of course, this isn't really something you can credit or blame the host committee for.

Any thoughts?

 

[blockski]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

The thing about Cincy was that in 1996, that arena did not have a full time hockey tenant (they got an ECHL team starting in 1997). That was the last time the FF has been in an arena without a full time hockey tenant (AHL, NHL, etc) until Ford Field.

 

[markwojo]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

This was my 5th F4 in the last 6 years. By far the worst and mainly because the ice conditions were beyond aweful. There were far to many times where Wisco dumped the puck just to make a full change where RIT struggled to get to the blueline on what should have been a free out. RIT didn't beat DU and UNH to get to the F4 by being god aweful and fumble the puck behind their own goal with NO pressure on them. Hell Wisco has a blueline full of 1st and 2nd round draft picks that are coming to an NHL arena near you soon, and on the PP they struggled to complete a D to D pass without it wobbling, jumping over a stick, or rolling up on end. When EVERY stoggage in play has guys with buckets of snow packing problem spots, the ice is horrible. We got into the final an hour plus before puck drop and the ice crew was working way to hard in the area in front of the Badger bench. We had squiegie's moving major ammounts of water 10 minutes after the zamboni had finished and it should have been rock solid. Hell they had the pump up weed sprayer going and the fire extinguishers. While, I've been know to use a pump up weed sprayer on my backyard rink, I've never used a fire extinguisher or squiegie. My backyard only hosts championships of the universe with my 7 year old and we don't award trophies. The fact that this was a championship event on that pathetic sheet of ice is a travesty. I doubt there is any coincidence that the 2 teams that had experience playing on portable crap ice surfaces earlier in the year ended up in the final via some of the most lopsided scores that I can remember in an F4 semi.

Beyond the ice, the venue was just not right for championship hockey for a lot of reason. Ford Field would be fine for a Michigan/MSU regular season game where you want the specatacle to draw in the casual fan that won't notice the ice is crap and the resulting play is timid at best. The sightline from the risers were gruesome. We were in row 4, and could not see probably a 1/4er of the ice surface. Way to shallow and can not believe they did not ask someone from the Joe or that knows anything about hockey sightlines for an opinion on the shallow set up to correct it before fans got subjected to that craptacular seating. Even better, the video board was showing the game in reverse of how it was being played in front of you, so when you were unable to see the play (again about a 1/4er of the ice for us), you looked up at a video board where the play was opposite of what was happening right in front of you in real life. Simply genius!!! Last the accoustics wer terrible. Announcements that were about as muddled as trying to listen submerged in the bottom of a swimming pool.

The highlight for this F4 was seeing how different downtown Detroit is from the stereotype. It was a vibrant downtown not unlike any other major city that had lots to be done and plenty safe. There seemed to be a greater knowledge among locals that the F4 was going on then other prior cities. Detroit would make a fabulous host for future F4...just not Ford Field please.

 

[Bill]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

One comment/question about the title of this thread: For the old-timers around here, do people really think that the overall Frozen Four experience was worse this year than in Cincinnati in 1996? From my point of view (and as stated by many others on the board over the past few weeks), the overall experience comes down to three things: the fan experience outside of the games, the facility itself, and the games. Looking at each individually:

- Fan experience: IMHO, there is no question that Detroit was far ahead of Cinci in this regard. My most memorable non-game experience in Cinci was hundreds of people storming a grossly understaffed Skyline Chili between semifinal games, because there was just about nothing else around the arena. The event was a non-event in the city, and virtually no preparations were made to make people feel welcome. The comments on this thread and others about Detroit, on the other hand, are very positive, with plenty to do around the venue, a host organization that made a real effort to welcome people, etc.
- The facility: Cinci wins, but by a much closer margin than you would expect. Other than the fact that the arena was a basketball/hockey facility, it had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The food was awful, the seats were ripped, a Zamboni broke down before the first game even began, and, if I recall correctly, the facility staff had a touch of a problem with the ice . Ford Field was the opposite--the "smaller" things were very good. It was the "big" ones that were the problem
- The games themselves: In terms of excitment, of course Cinci wins. Of course, this isn't really something you can credit or blame the host committee for.

Any thoughts?

No question that apart from the games themselves Detroit is a better hockey environment and had more things to do. However, despite the ice problems in Cinci, I enjoyed "watching" the Frozen Four games there more than at Ford Field. Yes the seats in Cinci were the ugliest I've ever seen. Given a choice between going to a future Frozen Four at Cinci and one at Ford Field, I would choose Cinci. I doubt Cinci will ever have another one though.

It's a matter of priorities. For me, viewing the actual games and having the electric atmosphere of the Frozen Four is a high priority. Ford Field failed me on both accounts. Sure we at least had a halfway decent view of the ice surface once we moved out of our $189 seats with an almost non-existent view of the games, but the seats at Ford Field are universally farther from the ice than comparable seats in an ice arena, and the cavernous size of the venue greatly diminished the electric atmosphere normally found at a Frozen Four.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

No question that apart from the games themselves Detroit is a better hockey environment and had more things to do. However, despite the ice problems in Cinci, I enjoyed "watching" the Frozen Four games there more than at Ford Field. Yes the seats in Cinci were the ugliest I've ever seen. Given a choice between going to a future Frozen Four at Cinci and one at Ford Field, I would choose Cinci. I doubt Cinci will ever have another one though.

It's a matter of priorities. For me, viewing the actual games and having the electric atmosphere of the Frozen Four is a high priority. Ford Field failed me on both accounts. Sure we at least had a halfway decent view of the ice surface once we moved out of our $189 seats with an almost non-existent view of the games, but the seats at Ford Field are universally farther from the ice than comparable seats in an ice arena, and the cavernous size of the venue greatly diminished the electric atmosphere normally found at a Frozen Four.

The problem with the "atmosphere" issue is who is there- in Cincinnati, a HUGE amount of the fans were from Michigan- wanting their first NC for decades plus UM brought the largest band, ever, to a final (and the rules changed because of it).

OTOH, for whatever reason, the Wisconsin fans we heard at the start of Saturday's game sat on their collective hands for the rest of the time. It sounded like it was going to rock, and all that happened was that RIT kept trying to get them BACK into it.

As for the seating- well, I didn't find it that bad, especially compared to some of the modern shallow NHL rinks we've visited. Both risers were horrible, true. But the upper bowl seats were darned good- our seats in Denver were WAY high. If you were expecting bad seats, I'm sure your opinion swayed toward that opinion. We han an open mind, and only didn't like the sound that was mic'ed. And ice level bands are bad. Very bad. Not like having the school bands on the wood floors.

For those of you complaining about the glass- you'll note that the Joe has posts too. You would have had to complain about that, there, too.

All things considered, how was Anaheim? And the 15 people who flew out to that? That had to be nice and lifeless.

 

[Bill]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

The problem with the "atmosphere" issue is who is there- in Cincinnati, a HUGE amount of the fans were from Michigan- wanting their first NC for decades plus UM brought the largest band, ever, to a final (and the rules changed because of it).

OTOH, for whatever reason, the Wisconsin fans we heard at the start of Saturday's game sat on their collective hands for the rest of the time. It sounded like it was going to rock, and all that happened was that RIT kept trying to get them BACK into it.

As for the seating- well, I didn't find it that bad, especially compared to some of the modern shallow NHL rinks we've visited. Both risers were horrible, true. But the upper bowl seats were darned good- our seats in Denver were WAY high. If you were expecting bad seats, I'm sure your opinion swayed toward that opinion. We han an open mind, and only didn't like the sound that was mic'ed. And ice level bands are bad. Very bad. Not like having the school bands on the wood floors.

For those of you complaining about the glass- you'll note that the Joe has posts too. You would have had to complain about that, there, too.

All things considered, how was Anaheim? And the 15 people who flew out to that? That had to be nice and lifeless.

The atmosphere for all the Frozen Fours I've been to was better than Ford Field. We've sat in or close to the top of the upper bowls in a few Frozen Fours and the view from there is better than pretty much any seat at Ford Field, simply because we were horizontally much closer to the ice and could see what was going on better. The atmosphere issue at Ford Field was principally a function of being so far from the ice surface horizontally, not which teams were there or what the scores of the games were. That plus the terrible acoustics.

Anaheim wasn't as good of a host as Detroit, but the hockey games themselves had a lot better atmosphere and the seats were better. The fact that it was in a hockey arena does make that much difference.

 

[blockski]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

OTOH, for whatever reason, the Wisconsin fans we heard at the start of Saturday's game sat on their collective hands for the rest of the time. It sounded like it was going to rock, and all that happened was that RIT kept trying to get them BACK into it.

No need to guess. The performance of Wisconsin fans mirrored the performance of the Wisconsin team.

Had UW popped in a goal and tied up the game at 1 before the wheels came off, the crowd would have erupted. As it was, they sure didn't have much to cheer for.

 

[TigerFan86-87]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

All things considered, how was Anaheim? And the 15 people who flew out to that? That had to be nice and lifeless.

Anaheim was strange. It was in the 50's in Southern California in April. There was no hope of anyone driving in to see the championship game like happened in Detroit and Cincinnati. But the games themselves were much more exciting (and closer, obviously). The crowds were relatively small, but UNH, Maine, and MSU had fair followings there, so the atmosphere was decent. As far as the "bad" weather, compared to what the weather was like back here in Western New York at the time, we were still thrilled to be elsewhere that weekend.

While I'm at it, I'll throw in my two cents about this most recent FF. Yes, Detroit did a fantastic job hosting the tournament, as expected. And yes, the site stunk. If they ever do that in a football field again, I will absolutely not attend. And I do believe they will, eventually... I have no idea where, though.
Our seats were located in the 6th row in the risers and we couldn't see S### (goes to show you what a 13 priority level gets you). We watched the entire first period on the jumbotron before bailing and simply taking whatever vacant seats we could find. Fortunately for the last two periods of the BC-Miami game and for the championship game, someone my sister knows had empty seats near them that we sat in. They weren't too horrible, but still felt like we were really far away (in row 21 near the BC corner). As far as the PA sound goes, from the field seats, you couldn't hear a single thing on the PA very clearly, but once we got up into the real stands, it was much improved. The crowd noise was pretty dulled by the arena everywhere we sat, especially in the risers. Even though there were a group of Wisconsin fans right behind us, when they scored (and scored, and scored, and scored, etc...) against RIT, it just didn't seem very loud even though it looked like there were a fair number of Wisco fans standing and cheering. When we walked through the concourse to get over to the RIT corner near the end, we couldn't even make out that the Badgers had just scored two more goals. I had to peek through one of the tunnels to accidentally find out that the score was 7-1, then 8-1. Which brings me to another point... with the lack of a center-ice scoreboard made it a little confusing to find out information about the game. The banner scoreboards at the ends were difficult to read at times as they kept shifting the numbers around when there were penalties and such. I was impressed with the stadium as a whole. I would love to see a football game in there. But for hockey, I could do without it. Unfortunately, I can't see the NCAA passing up the opportunity to sell 37,000+ tickets to the game again. I guess we'll find out. If they do do this again, let's just hope that RIT can pull out another minor miracle and get in there so the Corner Crew can keep us all entertained again

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

I had to peek through one of the tunnels to accidentally find out that the score was 7-1, then 8-1.

If that's your criteria, you might as well cancel your Frozen Four tickets. I doubt the X is going to get that loud over a 6 or 7 goal lead either.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Worst Frozen Four Ever

The atmosphere for all the Frozen Fours I've been to was better than Ford Field. We've sat in or close to the top of the upper bowls in a few Frozen Fours and the view from there is better than pretty much any seat at Ford Field, simply because we were horizontally much closer to the ice and could see what was going on better. The atmosphere issue at Ford Field was principally a function of being so far from the ice surface horizontally, not which teams were there or what the scores of the games were. That plus the terrible acoustics.

Anaheim wasn't as good of a host as Detroit, but the hockey games themselves had a lot better atmosphere and the seats were better. The fact that it was in a hockey arena does make that much difference.

It was also the first time there were 3 blowouts.

For blowout 1, the Wisconsin fans didn't all make it to Detroit, yet.

For blowout 2, BC didn't have all that many fans.

For blowout 3, Wisconsin >>> BC fans, and neither their fans nor the band tried to do anything.

For much of "atmosphere"- it has a lot to do with how good the game is. Yes, Ford Field was, and will be, quieter than pretty much all hockey arenas. But it should not take RIT fans to get the two championship team fans on their feet. And thankfully, we were next to RIT for that pretty lame ending to the game- they really helped.

Good games will keep a small crowd on their toes. Bad games will do nothing to a large crowd.

Apples and oranges.