World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

[dubbie31]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

How Arsenal and others won titles in the past is vastly different. If you can't see that, there's no point in saying anything further. Things were becoming more lopsided already, but Chelski and City have pushed that much further down the road. It used to be the EPL was about more than just who has the biggest sugardaddy. I sincerely hope that UEFA is serious about the financial rules and keeps City and Chelski out of the Champions League and such if they keep spending willy nilly.

The financial fair play rules are anything BUT fair play. They are only there to keep the established elite in their place. With those rules, you will never ever see any of the smaller clubs have a chance to build themselves into a power. Fulham will never have a chance. Good Luck Stoke! FFP is a ridiculous and corrupt scam.

Saying Arsenal never spent money is ridiculous too. They do spend money, and poach young players from clubs by tapping them up. Wenger is the ultimate at that. Yet, he accuses everyone else of doing it.

FFP is Platini's way of sticking it to England. The guy in charge of it is the President of a bank the is about ready to go under.

Bob, I respect your views, but you are dead wrong when it comes to the way things are done. How did you expect City to grow quickly without spending??? How does any club grow quickly without spending???

Why don't you go through 35 years of hell and mis-management and have another club just outside your City turning their noses up at you making you miserable.

City was in a situation where they had to get really good, really fast.

Your money arguements really don't carry much weight.

 

[dubbie31]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

Arsenal having a modest amount of debt on the books relates to City and Chelski's wild spending in recent seasons exactly how? It's really funny that you'd try to argue Arsenal are in any way similar to City or Chelski. Of all the big English clubs, Arsenal are run the most fiscally conservatively. They over time make a profit in the transfer market, with their modest debt being related to things like redevelopment of Highbury and the new Emirates Stadium, both of which will easily pay back the modest debt in relatively short order. Your arguments have no financial legs to stand on.

Over time...making a profit in the transfer market means selling your best players and showing no desire to really compete for major honours. Your arguements hold no football weight. Arsenal haven't won silverware in a while and its because they fail to go out and get those 1 or 2 players to get them there. How long has it been since Arsenal had a great central holding midfielder? Or a great center back to anchor the defense? Since Viera left, Arsenal have gone downhill and have failed to spend the money needed to replace him. There are a lot of empty seats at the Emirates' because the supporters are fed up with the lack of desire.

Arsenal...on the pitch plays beautiful football at times...but lack the spine to win honours...City, United and Chelsea all have that.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

The financial fair play rules are anything BUT fair play. They are only there to keep the established elite in their place. With those rules, you will never ever see any of the smaller clubs have a chance to build themselves into a power. Fulham will never have a chance. Good Luck Stoke! FFP is a ridiculous and corrupt scam.

Saying Arsenal never spent money is ridiculous too. They do spend money, and poach young players from clubs by tapping them up. Wenger is the ultimate at that. Yet, he accuses everyone else of doing it.

FFP is Platini's way of sticking it to England. The guy in charge of it is the President of a bank the is about ready to go under.

Bob, I respect your views, but you are dead wrong when it comes to the way things are done. How did you expect City to grow quickly without spending??? How does any club grow quickly without spending???

Why don't you go through 35 years of hell and mis-management and have another club just outside your City turning their noses up at you making you miserable.

City was in a situation where they had to get really good, really fast.

Your money arguements really don't carry much weight.

You don't know much about Arsenal's financials and history do you? But, I can understand your jealousy, as teams like City and Chelsea couldn't build and compete straight up.

City didn't grow, just their budget. You take away their sugardaddy and the underlying status of the club wouldn't be much different, possibly worse if they left things in poor shape.

Hey, I just go by basic principles of accounting and economics. If you don't like 'em, fair enough. If people can't differentiate between a long term moderate debt related to infrastructure developments, and yearly financials that show enormous losses year after year, that's too bad for those folks, not me.

I can understand your point about the financial rules to some extent, but apart from putting something like that in there, you'd only have a handful of teams who are either the very largest (ManU) or have unlimited funds (City and Chelski) who could afford to field competitive teams.

I actually have generally liked City in the past and rooted for them. But, I now root against them and Chelski because they have an unsustainable financial model that distorts things in ways that punish clubs that actually build and grow in a normal fashion. You are arguing for a model that destroys any semblance of competitiveness. Not something I'm interested in supporting. I'm not a big Platini fan, but he's spot on here. England football as a whole is going further and further into debt all across the board and if you care about the game, you should realize that's not sustainable or healthy. This is like arguing against the ever ballooning federal budget deficit with people who milk the feds for all it is worth and want the financial madness to continue for their own personal gain, while the country swirls the drain.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

Over time...making a profit in the transfer market means selling your best players and showing no desire to really compete for major honours. Your arguements hold no football weight. Arsenal haven't won silverware in a while and its because they fail to go out and get those 1 or 2 players to get them there. How long has it been since Arsenal had a great central holding midfielder? Or a great center back to anchor the defense? Since Viera left, Arsenal have gone downhill and have failed to spend the money needed to replace him. There are a lot of empty seats at the Emirates' because the supporters are fed up with the lack of desire.

Arsenal...on the pitch plays beautiful football at times...but lack the spine to win honours...City, United and Chelsea all have that.

Arsenal have won lots of honors during Wenger's time. He just hasn't won much since the sugardaddies bought world all star teams while Wenger tried to actually build a team while keeping his club in good long term financial condition. You equate desire with having a billionaire buy your team and spend half a billion dollars to buy the best players. City or Chelski are no more desirous than Arsenal is, they just don't have to live in any sort of normal financial reality, as their teams are playthings for billionaires who think nothing of spending hundreds of millions on players. If such an owner ever takes over Arsenal, it will be a very sad day for the club and its supporters and it'll be a lot harder to root for them.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

More specifically: that Mancini has been successful in his signings in no way disproves that he has oodles of money at his disposal to just throw around. Without that money, he can't sign the right guys, ergo the teams success is bought and paid for.

I don't know if I'm not being clear or what. I in no way dispute your final sentence. I just make the point that City are hardly the first club to do so. Not by a long shot.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

I can understand your point about the financial rules to some extent, but apart from putting something like that in there, you'd only have a handful of teams who are either the very largest (ManU) or have unlimited funds (City and Chelski) who could afford to field competitive teams.

The rest of the paragraph undermines your first sentence. If you think the FFP rules are going to help clubs field competitive teams, you clearly don't understand the point Kepler, dubbie, and I have made.

 

[dubbie31]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

You don't know much about Arsenal's financials and history do you? But, I can understand your jealousy, as teams like City and Chelsea couldn't build and compete straight up.

City didn't grow, just their budget. You take away their sugardaddy and the underlying status of the club wouldn't be much different, possibly worse if they left things in poor shape.

Hey, I just go by basic principles of accounting and economics. If you don't like 'em, fair enough. If people can't differentiate between a long term moderate debt related to infrastructure developments, and yearly financials that show enormous losses year after year, that's too bad for those folks, not me.

I can understand your point about the financial rules to some extent, but apart from putting something like that in there, you'd only have a handful of teams who are either the very largest (ManU) or have unlimited funds (City and Chelski) who could afford to field competitive teams.

I actually have generally liked City in the past and rooted for them. But, I now root against them and Chelski because they have an unsustainable financial model that distorts things in ways that punish clubs that actually build and grow in a normal fashion. You are arguing for a model that destroys any semblance of competitiveness. Not something I'm interested in supporting. I'm not a big Platini fan, but he's spot on here. England football as a whole is going further and further into debt all across the board and if you care about the game, you should realize that's not sustainable or healthy. This is like arguing against the ever ballooning federal budget deficit with people who milk the feds for all it is worth and want the financial madness to continue for their own personal gain, while the country swirls the drain.

Bob, I can't change your opinion...I know that. You will fail to see the reasons City had to spend quickly.

However, that spending isn't just on players. City's new training facilities, stadium and academy facilities will be UNMATCHED.

Before the takeover, City couldn't afford to pay the wages....they barely could afford to paint the pitch. I know enough about Arsenal's history to know that their financial penny pinching has hurt them. They have gambled for too long on young players who do NOT pan out.

Without Champions' League football/money, Arsenal will be in trouble. Liverpool are still fighting to get back into the top 4. In order to be successful and sustain that success...you have to spend. We may not like it....but thats how it goes.

You can hate City all you want for the money spent, but the owners are also investing in the City and the community. They are putting money into the surrounding areas of the stadium and making the club financially sustainable. In order to do that...performance on the pitch had to drastically improve...which means buying quality players.

Like I said though...Arsenal never had to play 2nd fiddle in their own area of the City like Man City has.

Until you actually go through what City fans went through...your arguements hold no water. We went through relegation to the 3rd tier of English football and barely survived. We went from January 2007 through August 2007....without scoring at HOME!!! Our former chairman was a WAR CRIMINAL!

Now we have a team and a club that has shown undeniable desire to be the best it can be.

Like I said, wait until Arsenal goes 35 years without a trophy...the fans there want the club to spend and get good players in. Arsenal fans deserve a chance at silverware...but until they stop being tightwads...winning the league won't happen...they may get a Carling Cup or FA Cup...but they wont have a chance...especially if the are relegated to Europa League lext season....which I think is highly likely.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

I don't know if I'm not being clear or what. I in no way dispute your final sentence. I just make the point that City are hardly the first club to do so. Not by a long shot.

They and Chelski have just done it on a scale never seen before.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

Bob, I can't change your opinion...I know that. You will fail to see the reasons City had to spend quickly.

However, that spending isn't just on players. City's new training facilities, stadium and academy facilities will be UNMATCHED.

Before the takeover, City couldn't afford to pay the wages....they barely could afford to paint the pitch. I know enough about Arsenal's history to know that their financial penny pinching has hurt them. They have gambled for too long on young players who do NOT pan out.

Without Champions' League football/money, Arsenal will be in trouble. Liverpool are still fighting to get back into the top 4. In order to be successful and sustain that success...you have to spend. We may not like it....but thats how it goes.

You can hate City all you want for the money spent, but the owners are also investing in the City and the community. They are putting money into the surrounding areas of the stadium and making the club financially sustainable. In order to do that...performance on the pitch had to drastically improve...which means buying quality players.

Like I said though...Arsenal never had to play 2nd fiddle in their own area of the City like Man City has.

Until you actually go through what City fans went through...your arguements hold no water. We went through relegation to the 3rd tier of English football and barely survived. We went from January 2007 through August 2007....without scoring at HOME!!! Our former chairman was a WAR CRIMINAL!

Now we have a team and a club that has shown undeniable desire to be the best it can be.

Like I said, wait until Arsenal goes 35 years without a trophy...the fans there want the club to spend and get good players in. Arsenal fans deserve a chance at silverware...but until they stop being tightwads...winning the league won't happen...they may get a Carling Cup or FA Cup...but they wont have a chance...especially if the are relegated to Europa League lext season....which I think is highly likely.

What a ramble. Some accurate, a lot not showing much understanding of Arsenal and its history. I guess we're just different. You want your club to win, regardless of the means, whereas, I'd rather not succeed regardless of means. Arsenal has had a possibility of a sugardaddy, the Russian guy who owns about 30 percent of the club. I've been very against his taking over, even though he'd probably do at least some of what Chelsea and City have seen done for them. I hope you enjoy your titles in an uncompetitive league against teams that have nowhere near the money. I wouldn't enjoy that very much.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

The rest of the paragraph undermines your first sentence. If you think the FFP rules are going to help clubs field competitive teams, you clearly don't understand the point Kepler, dubbie, and I have made.

That's because there's two sides to the issue, and even though I fall on one side, I can understand there's some legitimacy in certain arguments the other side makes. Not enough to sway me, but it's not the end of the world to admit folks you disagree with have some standing to make certain arguments.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

The more and more that is argued, the more and more I see the need for salary caps and transfer budget caps. Granted, I don't like the EPL and a lot of the other Euro leagues (it's a disconnect to me, why do I need to follow a team tens of thousands of miles away in a place I've never seen, when there is a league and teams in this country?)

From what I see, the bubble is going to burst and English soccer is going to suffer unless something is done. Like I said, the majority of the games are meaningless because everybody knows that Man U, Chelsea and Team X that just spent billions will fight for the title and everybody else is fighting for position. You can jazz it up with Europa League spots and relegation battles but, is that sustainable to casual fans even in England? What is the joy in "We did slightly less terrible than 3 teams!" or "We finished 5th!"? I don't think you can sustain interest with that.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

From what I see, the bubble is going to burst and English soccer is going to suffer unless something is done. Like I said, the majority of the games are meaningless because everybody knows that Man U, Chelsea and Team X that just spent billions will fight for the title and everybody else is fighting for position. You can jazz it up with Europa League spots and relegation battles but, is that sustainable to casual fans even in England? What is the joy in "We did slightly less terrible than 3 teams!" or "We finished 5th!"? I don't think you can sustain interest with that.

Considering it's been going on for years, I'm going to venture a guess that the answer is yes?

 

[Jimjamesak]

Considering it's been going on for years, I'm going to venture a guess that the answer is yes?

Because the majority of teams have run themselves huge debts buying players and pricing out their loyal fanbases in an effort to increase money from international tv. That bubble is going to burst when the money runs out and the players leave to play in Germany or Spain or wherever.

They did a similar thing in the 70s and 80s, spent money on players building teams to play in Europe and neglecting what was going on in the stadiums. Then Heysel happened, the bubble burst, players left and they suffered until they had to change because of the Taylor Report and the formation of the EPL and BSkyB's TV money.

 

[Jimjamesak]

In terms of deciding the title perhaps, but I think you'd have a hard time telling Swansea and Wolves that their match this past weekend was meaningless, both of them being relegation contenders and all. Or fans of Manchester City and Spurs when they were fighting it out for fourth two years ago.

I would tell them straight faced that their games were meaningless. The object and goal ultimately is to win the title. When it comes to the fact that many teams in the EPL have to set goals like "avoid relegation, try to get a European spot" year in and year out something is wrong. When you have to go in every season knowing you have almost zero chance at the title, whiskeytangofoxtrot is the point? The idea of the relegation battle and the 4th CL spot, and the Europa League spots is nothing than an attempt to give meaning to those teams' season. Granted, this isn't different than the playoff spot battle in other leagues, but at least there you have a chance to win something.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

A couple of thoughts, I apologize for not putting into the effort to multi-quote everything:

A) I believe Bob makes a legit point with regard to Arsenal's debt situation. While they aren't afraid to throw money around to buy up young talent (see, e.g., Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Fabregas), they generally do so with money that they actually have, and the large amount of debt is largely due to the fact that they just built a new stadium. You don't expect them to pay ~400 million pounds to build the Emirates in cash, do you?

B) I think the reason why City are drawing so much flak for the amount they're spending, more so than United and perhaps even Chelsea, is that they're throwing enough money around to push around not just the Southamptons and Fulhams of the world, but also some of the wealthiest clubs in the world. When Arsenal pays 9 million pounds for a 17-year-old Theo Walcott, or United pays 12 million for Louis Saha in top form, or Chelsea tap up and sign Gael Kakuta, it's acknowledged as part of the established order of things. (Whether that's right or wrong is besides the point.) When City start spending, on a regular basis, enough money to cherry-pick the best players from big clubs (Yaya Toure from the 5th richest club in the world, Adebayor and Nasri from the 3rd richest, Aguero from the 19th richest, Balotelli from the 10th richest, de Jong from the 14th richest, not to mention guys like Lescott and Milner and Barry from clubs that are hardly poor), people sit up and take notice.

C) The ability to spend that much money doesn't mean Mancini's good work should be unrecognized. Spending a lot of money sure does make it easier to win, but it doesn't make it automatic; as a Mets fan, I know all about that.

 

[dubbie31]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

I would tell them straight faced that their games were meaningless. The object and goal ultimately is to win the title. When it comes to the fact that many teams in the EPL have to set goals like "avoid relegation, try to get a European spot" year in and year out something is wrong. When you have to go in every season knowing you have almost zero chance at the title, whiskeytangofoxtrot is the point? The idea of the relegation battle and the 4th CL spot, and the Europa League spots is nothing than an attempt to give meaning to those teams' season. Granted, this isn't different than the playoff spot battle in other leagues, but at least there you have a chance to win something.

The relegation battle is at least a good reason to watch the games and it ensures that EVERY game means something. As we witnessed at the end of last season those battles at the end are epic. I have lived through the relegation scraps and the close calls....I've also seen City relegated. As a City fan, I have seen the high and lows.

Either way...makes for a good day of drinking in the pub.

 

[dubbie31]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

A couple of thoughts, I apologize for not putting into the effort to multi-quote everything:

A) I believe Bob makes a legit point with regard to Arsenal's debt situation. While they aren't afraid to throw money around to buy up young talent (see, e.g., Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Fabregas), they generally do so with money that they actually have, and the large amount of debt is largely due to the fact that they just built a new stadium. You don't expect them to pay ~400 million pounds to build the Emirates in cash, do you?

B) I think the reason why City are drawing so much flak for the amount they're spending, more so than United and perhaps even Chelsea, is that they're throwing enough money around to push around not just the Southamptons and Fulhams of the world, but also some of the wealthiest clubs in the world. When Arsenal pays 9 million pounds for a 17-year-old Theo Walcott, or United pays 12 million for Louis Saha in top form, or Chelsea tap up and sign Gael Kakuta, it's acknowledged as part of the established order of things. (Whether that's right or wrong is besides the point.) When City start spending, on a regular basis, enough money to cherry-pick the best players from big clubs (Yaya Toure from the 5th richest club in the world, Adebayor and Nasri from the 3rd richest, Aguero from the 19th richest, Balotelli from the 10th richest, de Jong from the 14th richest, not to mention guys like Lescott and Milner and Barry from clubs that are hardly poor), people sit up and take notice.

C) The ability to spend that much money doesn't mean Mancini's good work should be unrecognized. Spending a lot of money sure does make it easier to win, but it doesn't make it automatic; as a Mets fan, I know all about that.

Mancini has stood up to the egos and let them know who is boss too. His tactical awareness and ability to change in mid game to counter the opposition is superb. What was amazing was the way he out coached Ferguson. Roberto Mancini took Ferguson's tactics and threw them right back in his face.

The main difference in Mancini this season, is that he is more comfortable in his position, he has his team to work with and has been able to get the bad apples out. He has completely changed the culture of the club. From the coaching staff, to the players and training staff. Mancini has worked wonders. He has brought a winning mentality in and now he has other teams fearing City.

Even with the Money...no one really feared playing City before, now after winning 6-1 at the Swamp...people are taking notice and taking City seriously now.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

Mancini has stood up to the egos and let them know who is boss too. His tactical awareness and ability to change in mid game to counter the opposition is superb. What was amazing was the way he out coached Ferguson. Roberto Mancini took Ferguson's tactics and threw them right back in his face.

The main difference in Mancini this season, is that he is more comfortable in his position, he has his team to work with and has been able to get the bad apples out. He has completely changed the culture of the club. From the coaching staff, to the players and training staff. Mancini has worked wonders. He has brought a winning mentality in and now he has other teams fearing City.

Even with the Money...no one really feared playing City before, now after winning 6-1 at the Swamp...people are taking notice and taking City seriously now.

And like I said, that isn't insignificant, but all those tactical adjustments wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if he had Wigan's players.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

Mancini has stood up to the egos and let them know who is boss too. His tactical awareness and ability to change in mid game to counter the opposition is superb. What was amazing was the way he out coached Ferguson. Roberto Mancini took Ferguson's tactics and threw them right back in his face.

The main difference in Mancini this season, is that he is more comfortable in his position, he has his team to work with and has been able to get the bad apples out. He has completely changed the culture of the club. From the coaching staff, to the players and training staff. Mancini has worked wonders. He has brought a winning mentality in and now he has other teams fearing City.

Even with the Money...no one really feared playing City before, now after winning 6-1 at the Swamp...people are taking notice and taking City seriously now.

Knowing the amount of money they had to spend, people took City very seriously well before the win over ManU. Going into this season I fully expected City to finish ahead of Arsenal. Not being argumentative there, but the quality and depth of the squad they've bought is something that it's hard to ignore.

 

[HumRsky]

Re: World Soccer XXI: Don't Tread on the Red, White, and Blue

I would argue that the fight for spots in Europe holds a great deal of significance. While difficult, it's possible for lesser teams to make run at the Champions League. Liverpool haven't been particularly close to winning an English title in years, but won the CL in 2005 and were finalists in 2007. I've never gotten a good feel for just how significant the Europa League is, but it is certainly not insignificant. 2004 CL Champions Porto seemed joyous to win the Europa League last season.