Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[SJHovey]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Union hack teachers have nothing to do with the state of education in this country. Got it. There's plenty of blame to go around. But union hack teachers simply must take their share of the blame.

I do think it's kind of funny that you take this shot at unionized teachers by using the "state of education" argument, which is basically an argument advanced by unionized teachers, albeit behind the scenes.

 

[Slap Shot]

Why should(do) states depend on federal largesse to finance their activities??

You should ask all those red states that rely upon the blues to cover their ***.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I do think it's kind of funny that you take this shot at unionized teachers by using the "state of education" argument, which is basically an argument advanced by unionized teachers, albeit behind the scenes.

He seems unable to distinguish between actions of union leaders and the desires of union members. There is considerable resentment among public-sector union members against their "leaders" simmering under the surface. My bet is that a majority of public-sector union members are fed up with the big-shot grandstanding of their leaders. All the ps union members I know want slackers disciplined, for example; they are disgusted with the abuses they see and are really tired of covering for them. In addition, they all want so see their pensions fully funded first before any new hires are added to the existing pension formula while the leadership, obsessed with dues collection and being political bigshot kingmakers, want lots of money to spread around in politics.

If I knew the Koch brothers I'd apply for a job to start up a competing public-sector union based on performance bonuses and segregated trust-fund pension funding, for starters.

ASIDE: did anyone else notice the boring yet bombshell news from GM and Prudential? GM off-loaded its entire defined benefit pension obligation to Prudential. I'll see if I can find a link (note this is non-union pension obligation as the UAW "manages" the union-member pension, not GM).

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I have a close friend who is on a school task force and his feedback to me was that even if they pick a non-union firm to build new schools, they have to pay union rates and the cost goes up 35%.

In Wisconsin this is 100% true. I work for a commercial window/door company, that's how building in the public sector works.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I do think it's kind of funny that you take this shot at unionized teachers by using the "state of education" argument, which is basically an argument advanced by unionized teachers, albeit behind the scenes.

We need to pay teachers more. And we need to make it harder to fire incompetent teachers. Problem solved. Next.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

He seems unable to distinguish between actions of union leaders and the desires of union members. There is considerable resentment among public-sector union members against their "leaders" simmering under the surface. My bet is that a majority of public-sector union members are fed up with the big-shot grandstanding of their leaders. All the ps union members I know want slackers disciplined, for example; they are disgusted with the abuses they see and are really tired of covering for them. In addition, they all want so see their pensions fully funded first before any new hires are added to the existing pension formula while the leadership, obsessed with dues collection and being political bigshot kingmakers, want lots of money to spread around in politics.

If I knew the Koch brothers I'd apply for a job to start up a competing public-sector union based on performance bonuses and segregated trust-fund pension funding, for starters.

ASIDE: did anyone else notice the boring yet bombshell news from GM and Prudential? GM off-loaded its entire defined benefit pension obligation to Prudential. I'll see if I can find a link (note this is non-union pension obligation as the UAW "manages" the union-member pension, not GM).

I can and do differrentiate between leadership and the rank and file and have posted on that very topic several times. You just haven't been paying attention. The days when the rank and file follow along with whatever the bosses say are over. The Wisconsin outcome would be the most recent example. Among other things, now that their dues aren't withdrawn from their paychecks, thousands of public sector union members (including some teachers) have said adios to the unions.

However, these "union leaders" of which you speak are the ones who negotiate the contracts and make the demands.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We need to pay teachers more. And we need to make it harder to fire incompetent teachers. Problem solved. Next.

I presume you meant we need to make it easier to fire incompetent teachers, something that I agree with. But why do we need to pay teachers more?

 

[geezer]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

What exactly were they going to recall him on? My near-retirement age parents were irate about the loss of exemption status for pensions but that's hardly enough even with boomers to get the guy out of office.

Yeah, it was never going to happen... but I think the recall advocates were most PO'd about the emergency manager stuff, with pension taxes coming in second... the thing is, pensions will only be taxed beyond a high enough level that it affects very few people - and it just brings MI into line with most other states in that regard. So no, the recall was surely doomed from the start. It was more of a copycat move.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I presume you meant we need to make it easier to fire incompetent teachers, something that I agree with. But why do we need to pay teachers more?

He's being sarcastic and whiny.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I've seen cited in three different places a statistic that says 38% of union households voted for Walker on Tuesday.


Edit: ah, on further reading, that statistic appears to include private-sector union households too. I can certainly see why private-sector union members would favor Walker's reforms! In NJ, Sweeney (head of a private-sector union) has been a valuable ally to Christie in his public-sector union reform efforts....the public-sector unions are sucking up the money that private-sector unions need spent on infrastructure repair, one of the best sources of private-sector union jobs.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I presume you meant we need to make it easier to fire incompetent teachers, something that I agree with. But why do we need to pay teachers more?

My bet is that lots of teachers would love to have higher pay and portable pensions, instead of being locked into a system that requires lifetime service to vest (the typical formula is x% of salary per years of service). Younger teachers and those who want to "give back" would find higher current pay and a 401(k)-type plan much more attractive than the current pension structure, it would let them move more easily and give them a better lifestyle without the concentration of risk in having all of your retirement funds in one place (where typically they are not adequately funded to boot).

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

My bet is that lots of teachers would love to have higher pay and portable pensions, instead of being locked into a system that requires lifetime service to vest (the typical formula is x% of salary per years of service). Younger teachers and those who want to "give back" would find higher current pay and a 401(k)-type plan much more attractive than the current pension structure, it would let them move more easily and give them a better lifestyle without the concentration of risk in having all of your retirement funds in one place (where typically they are not adequately funded to boot).

I'd rather have the pension. Given how well 401K's have been growing the past 10 years or so I'd say the whole 401K is your key to retirement salvation rhetoric that's been rammed down our throats is just another Wall Street Ponzi scheme to screw the middle class.

And I have the 15 years experience in the scheme to back up my claim.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'd rather have the pension. ... And I have the 15 years experience in the scheme to back up my claim.

How many times did you change jobs during that 15-year period?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

How many times did you change jobs during that 15-year period?

Twice.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

... concentration of risk in having all of your retirement funds in one place (where typically they are not adequately funded to boot).

I'd rather have the pension.

I'm with Scooby. If you have a taxpayer-backed defined benefit pension, why should you care whether it's fully funded or not? Is a state government ever going to declare actual bankruptcy? No. You don't have to worry - you'll get paid.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Twice.

That's the problem with the pension. What happens to it when you change jobs? Given the way the formula works, (% of pay x yrs of service) every time you change jobs, you get a piddly result from the job you are leaving and start anew at the job you are taking. The pensions lock people into a system for their working life or they get little dribs and drabs from here and there.

That's another nefarious trick played by union leaders on union members. it would be great for the union member if there were better portability, no? but the union leader sees those dues going elsewhere and doesn't want that.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I'm with Scooby. If you have a taxpayer-backed defined benefit pension, why should you care whether it's fully funded or not? Is a state government ever going to declare actual bankruptcy? No. You don't have to worry - you'll get paid.

Ask the people of Central Falls, RI about that assertion.....

Retired police and firefighters from Central Falls, R.I., have agreed to sharp pension cuts, a step thought to be unprecedented in municipal bankruptcy and one that could prompt similar attempts by other distressed governments.

These are people who have already retired...lots of public sector union folk work for municipalities and counties, not just states.



The state or municipality doesn't have to "declare bankruptcy" to run out of money. If they don't have the cash, they don't have the cash (or see Tuesday's vote in San Jose CA:

San Jose's ballot measure ... reduces benefits for current workers; .... Employees will have to choose between accepting a lower level of benefits going forward or paying up to 16% more of their salary to keep their current plans.

(today's Wall St. Journal).

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I've seen cited in three different places a statistic that says 38% of union households voted for Walker on Tuesday.


Edit: ah, on further reading, that statistic appears to include private-sector union households too. I can certainly see why private-sector union members would favor Walker's reforms! In NJ, Sweeney (head of a private-sector union) has been a valuable ally to Christie in his public-sector union reform efforts....the public-sector unions are sucking up the money that private-sector unions need spent on infrastructure repair, one of the best sources of private-sector union jobs.

I think there are a lot of reasons why union members, or members of a union household, may have voted for Walker. I know that some of the more "progressive" talking heads were getting a little wound up about it, but to be surprised by this number shows a pretty large lack of understanding of how unions work.

First, union members don't vote 100% democrat, just like Romney won't get 100% of the Mormon vote and Obama didn't receive 100% of the African American vote. While the majority may vote as anticipated, there will always be a distinct minority that seem to vote against their "interests."

Second, it's easy to anticipate that people who otherwise opposed Walker's changes, as union members, still dislike the idea of recalls, and the endless election cycle.

Third, and maybe most significant, when was the last time you saw a union ratification election come in 100% to 0%? Never. In fact, if the unions get certified at all, it's usually by just the slimmest of margins. That means that somewhere between 40% and 50% of these union members are actually in the group under protest, and possibly still very unhappy about it. As anyone who has ever been involved in union organizing, strikes, collective bargaining or the like, will tell you, "solidarity for all" is a joke. Give me 51% and we'll call it a day.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I've seen cited in three different places a statistic that says 38% of union households voted for Walker on Tuesday.


Edit: ah, on further reading, that statistic appears to include private-sector union households too. I can certainly see why private-sector union members would favor Walker's reforms! In NJ, Sweeney (head of a private-sector union) has been a valuable ally to Christie in his public-sector union reform efforts....the public-sector unions are sucking up the money that private-sector unions need spent on infrastructure repair, one of the best sources of private-sector union jobs.

Think a little too much is being made of that statistic, honestly. That's a pretty average level of union support for a Republican. Bush got 40% in '04, for instance.l I mean, it's notable that it didn't crater, but other than that, much ado about nothing, I think.

In Ohio, the very same fight was messaged differently and the unions won out. Here they got crushed. They need to lose the arrogance that people will automatically tune out the other sides' arguments.

Was the fight in Ohio truly messaged differently? Granted, they had the police & fire aspect, but I think a far far far more important factor than any sort of messaging was the fact that Wisconsin, at the time of voting, had seen the effects of one year of reforms. Ohio had not seen a day. Doom and gloom sells a lot better when it's a prediction for what's to come, not a claim that has to be backed up with actual evidence.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Good analysis of what happened Tuesday.

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/06/06/the-people-united-go-down-in-flames/