Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

[jerrynu26]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

And I will point out again, in D-I land (that is according to the posters on the D-I threads) winning your league's tournament, especially if you were not one of the top seeds, is considered the "cheap" way into the NCAA tournament. Really. But with 16 teams, there are a lot more at large bids.

In DI that equates to 27% of all teams make the playoffs. FOr DIII, only 14% make it in. If DIII did it the same percentage as DI, 20 teams would make the playoffs (although the 21st team would be upset no doubt).

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

And I will point out again, in D-I land (that is according to the posters on the D-I threads) winning your league's tournament, especially if you were not one of the top seeds, is considered the "cheap" way into the NCAA tournament. Really. But with 16 teams, there are a lot more at large bids.

The ratio of at large bids to AQs is very different. If/when we get enough DIII teams (and if the NCAA doesn't change the ratio), just going from 11 to 12 teams and adding one additional Pool C bid would help. If the NCAA would allow the NE-10 teams to count, we'd be there. The last team out will always feel they got jobbed - when the bouncy ball tournament went to 68 teams, there still are teams that figure they got left out unfairly. (Although I think they do "cheat" some of the teams from the minor conferences in favor of tail-enders from the major conferences with their selections.) Lots of times a team from a minor conference such as the America East that wins the reg season and gets upset in the league tournament gets left out while a second division team from a power conference gets in. At that level, neither is going to win the whole thing, so give some recognition to the little guy instead of favoring the big money schools.)

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The ratio of at large bids to AQs is very different. If/when we get enough DIII teams (and if the NCAA doesn't change the ratio), just going from 11 to 12 teams and adding one additional Pool C bid would help. If the NCAA would allow the NE-10 teams to count, we'd be there. The last team out will always feel they got jobbed - when the bouncy ball tournament went to 68 teams, there still are teams that figure they got left out unfairly. (Although I think they do "cheat" some of the teams from the minor conferences in favor of tail-enders from the major conferences with their selections.) Lots of times a team from a minor conference such as the America East that wins the reg season and gets upset in the league tournament gets left out while a second division team from a power conference gets in. At that level, neither is going to win the whole thing, so give some recognition to the little guy instead of favoring the big money schools.)

While some of what you say is right, there is a HUGE difference between hockey and basketball. Let's use BBall terminology here for a second.

Last 3 in
Adrian
Geneseo
Norwich

Last 3 out
Plattsburgh
Trinity
Amherst

Basketball
First 4 in
Saint Joseph's
Dayton
Brigham Young
Providence

Last 4 Out
Minnesota
Florida State
Southern Miss
Arkansas

You mean to tell me Minnesota, Florida State, Southern Miss, and Arkansas have the same kind of chance of winning a National Title as Plattsburgh, Trinity, and Amherst had? No way. (Yes I understand this is DI/DIII)

There are two issues. This whole "do one to all" approach doesn't work with hockey.... YES I KNOW ITS THIS WAY ACROSS THE BOARD AND ONE SPORT DOES NOT DICTATE THE PROCESS THEREFOR THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN..... There are 300+ DIII basketball programs. Only a handful of those are "contenders". 62 team tournament. 42 Pool A bids, 1 Pool B bid, 19 Pool C bids. You mean to tell me the 20th, 21st, and 22nd Pool C teams (first three out) are on par with the 4th, 5th, and 6th Pool C teams in hockey? Granted I don't follow roundball on the DIII level but has a 18th or 19th Pool C team ever made the Final Four? and or win the whole thing? So in order to get more teams we need to dilute the player pool even more then it already is and have more ECAC NE / MASCAC type teams out there so other teams/leagues can beat up on them and build up their winning %? Yea that's good for the game. This isn't basketball, there isn't 10's of thousands of hockey players playing hockey on the corner ghetto in the hood in every major city in America. Sure every sport has that "weak" conference. Fact of the matter is the NCAA doesn't care about hockey, let alone DIII hockey. 20 years ago I don't think its as much of an issue. There were very few top quality teams capable of winning it all. Then they took away the multi game format from the Championship which made the Final Four a one and done, then they took away the best of series, which made every round a one and done making it that much easier for the "Cinderella".

The way I see it, screw it. Maintain the ECAC NE and MASCAC bids. Give the ECAC West a bid just because (grandfather for being a good sport for so many years). Give the WIAC a bid (more deserving teams then the ECAC NE/MASCAC).

9 Auto Bids (Current plus WIAC and ECACW)
7 Pool C Bids

1 BABSON
2 GENESEO
3 OSWEGO
4 NORWICH
5 PLATTSBURGH
6 TRINITY
7 AMHERST
8 BOWDOIN
9 ELMIRA
10 NICOLS
11 SALEM ST


1 SNC
2 ADIRAN
3 ST.THOMAS
4 UWSP
5 UWEC

ROUND 1
ELM @ BOW
NIC @ SALEM
STH @ UWSP
ADR @ UWEC

ROUND 2
TRIN @ AMH
ELM/BOW @ PLATTSBURGH
NIC/SALEM @ NORWICH
STH/UWSP AT ADR/UWEC

ROUND 3
TRIN @ AMH AT BABSON
ELM @ BOW / PLATTS AT GENESEO
NIC @ SALEM / NOR AT OSWEGO
STH @ UWSP / ADR @ UWEC AT SNC

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Only problem is that your structure is totally against DIII rules, and all sports have to follow the same rules, whether they make sense for that sport or not. Should basketball, hockey, soccer, baseball, and lacrosse all have the same way of determining the structure of a NC tournament? Of course not, but that's what the NCAA says.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Only problem is that your structure is totally against DIII rules, and all sports have to follow the same rules, whether they make sense for that sport or not. Should basketball, hockey, soccer, baseball, and lacrosse all have the same way of determining the structure of a NC tournament? Of course not, but that's what the NCAA says.

"There are two issues. This whole "do one to all" approach doesn't work with hockey....."

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough for you...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

"There are two issues. This whole "do one to all" approach doesn't work with hockey....."

Sorry I guess I wasn't clear enough for you...

That is clear, and I don't disagree, but I also know it's not going to change ... that's my point. Doesn't matter what we think. Now, if the structure didn't work for basketball, they would change it...

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

FYI Norwich will traveling to Geneseo for the quarter-final game. In case you have not taken the time to read about it, the East Quarter-final games will be played on Sunday at 3:00PM

USCHO definitely had that game at NU when I looked at the schedule on Thursday... Not the first time that sort of thing has happened on here.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

ANd he will either:
a-maintain you misunderstood his post
b-claim to have seen that somewhere else (curiously no longer available however)
c-deny he said it
d-ignore it
e-ALL of the above

And the answer is...

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The conference tournaments are in essence an extension of the NCAA tournament, following which, 'second chances' are handed out to 4 teams deemed worthy by a committee that is provided guidance by the NCAA but weighs the criteria in a fashion only known to them to determine the 4.

View the system in this way and you'll be as close to at peace with it as you can be.

The conference tournaments are not an "extension" at all; what they represent -in terms of an AQ being thereby gifted- is in fact a regression, because the results of a single weekend can negate an entire season's data on the basis of a couple of games that are weighted inequitably.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

And I will point out again, in D-I land (that is according to the posters on the D-I threads) winning your league's tournament, especially if you were not one of the top seeds, is considered the "cheap" way into the NCAA tournament. Really. But with 16 teams, there are a lot more at large bids.

There is often only one D-1 team that makes it in solely on the basis of an AQ of late (usually, it's the AHA AQ).

Having a bigger field, and more parity than D-3, D-1 generally sends very few sacrificial lambs to slaughter in any given year, and it's rare right now to see anyone play a PS game on-campus.

D-3 should take note.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Fishy is just upset that Elmira beat Utica to win the ECAC west tournament. If Utica won his story would be different. He claims it doesn't mean anything but I bet winning the SUNY would have meant something to platty!

No... Neither team deserved a bid, win or lose, and I've said that several times.

(Platty could have probably made some hay with another W, but they were much closer to a bid than either UC or EC, who had played themselves out of a berth even before the all-important weekend to which you refer.)

Come on, people, use your heads... This is not about "my" team; this is about the dubious selection-process that prevails in D-3.

 

[jconnor]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

This thread is about Utica, Lewiston, or Bust. It turned out to be a bust and no Lewiston. How come this thread is still going on, and, on and , on..............

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

This thread is about Utica, Lewiston, or Bust. It turned out to be a bust and no Lewiston. How come this thread is still going on, and, on and , on..............

There is still ice on the lake.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

. This is not about "my" team; this is about the dubious selection-process that prevails in D-3.

The problem is that we are stuck with it because the NCAA mandates that all D-3 team sports use the same procedures. There is no interest in making special rules for particular sports. That is one reason why the Northeast-10 programs are stuck in a limbo. They could opt to play for the D-I title (which none of them want to do), but since they don't they become the poor relatives of the D-3 programs - playing most of their schedule against them, following their scholarship rules, but the games don't count, and the only postseason that they have is the NE-10 tournament. If the NCAA were to allow them to count as part of D-3, there is a fear that it would set a precedent in other sports, and chaos would ensue. If they were regarded as D-3 programs, there would be another Pool C slot to contend for at least.

You can complain all you want about the procedures, but until somebody convinces the decision makers, that the procedures don't make sense for a sport that the decision makers care about the procedures will not change. The problem is that relative to basketball, football, soccer, and other sports hockey is a small fish (so to speak ).

 

[joecct]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

And I would counter my distinguished colleague that the NCAA will not have two separate rules for the same division. Either the D-II's play up with the big boys (as is allowed now), or they sit in limbo (like the NE-10 schools). They're not going to permit, as Prof says, chaos.

We're not going to have them count towards primary selection or towards teams that count towards the # of teams in the tournament. The tournament is for D-III teams, not D-II and D-III teams.

 

[Laker28]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I don't think it would create much chaos to allow the DII teams to play as DIII teams as their is no DII in hockey. The rule could say if there is a DII in your sport you can play either DI or DIII, if there is a DII then you either play DII or DI. There isn't much incentive for schools to drop a single sport down a level other than in cases where they financially can't afford to move up and the sport is not sponsored at their level.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

The problem is that we are stuck with it because the NCAA mandates that all D-3 team sports use the same procedures. There is no interest in making special rules for particular sports. That is one reason why the Northeast-10 programs are stuck in a limbo. They could opt to play for the D-I title (which none of them want to do), but since they don't they become the poor relatives of the D-3 programs - playing most of their schedule against them, following their scholarship rules, but the games don't count, and the only postseason that they have is the NE-10 tournament. If the NCAA were to allow them to count as part of D-3, there is a fear that it would set a precedent in other sports, and chaos would ensue. If they were regarded as D-3 programs, there would be another Pool C slot to contend for at least.

You can complain all you want about the procedures, but until somebody convinces the decision makers, that the procedures don't make sense for a sport that the decision makers care about the procedures will not change. The problem is that relative to basketball, football, soccer, and other sports hockey is a small fish (so to speak ).

Good post, Prof, but it seems to me that no D-3 sport is notable enough on a national level to warrant any serious concern among the populace, should the NCAA allow the schools themselves to tinker with the selection rules on a sport-by-sport basis... I can't imagine that any trickle-up to D-1 would be pursuant to that circumstance.

I say: give D-3 free-rein to expand the field in hockey, or in any other sport.

It would take an hour to re-write the by-laws, tops, and the process would probably be inclusive of more deserving teams as a result. (As in, having both Trinity and Norwich participate in this year's tournament.)

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Good post, Prof, but it seems to me that no D-3 sport is notable enough on a national level to warrant any serious concern among the populace, should the NCAA allow the schools themselves to tinker with the selection rules on a sport-by-sport basis... I can't imagine that any trickle-up to D-1 would be pursuant to that circumstance.

I say: give D-3 free-rein to expand the field in hockey, or in any other sport.

It would take an hour to re-write the by-laws, tops, and the process would probably be inclusive of more deserving teams as a result. (As in, having both Trinity and Norwich participate in this year's tournament.)

NCAA

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

I say: give D-3 free-rein to expand the field in hockey, or in any other sport.

Funding for Division III championships comes from the budget that the NCAA allocates to Division III out of the general NCAA budget. It amounts to 3% of the total budget, despite the fact that a majority of the athletes who compete under the NCAA banner are from Division III schools. There actually has been a push to cut back on the size of tournament fields because of the fact that the current ratio 1:6.5 has caused a deficit in the Division III championships budget, and the projections, based on flat revenue from the TV contract for basketball (huge as it is, apparently the way it is structured, revenue won't increase from year to year). If one sport were allowed to expand their field, all would want to, and that would be unacceptable to the NCAA powers that be. There are lots of things that "should be" in the process, but until the Division I schools find some reason to become magnanimous and cede more of the revenue from the Basketball TV contract to Divisions II and III there isn't much hope of things changing.

The structure is mandated from above, and isn't going to change unless somebody has a major change of heart.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers '13-'14 = Lewiston or Bust

Thanks for your informative post.

What I find ironic is the apparent fact that many D-3 schools on the Northeast have their coffers overflowing with endowments, and yet the argument against expanding their sports is all about the cost incurred, as though though D-3 needs any help in that regard from big State D-1 schools, many of whom are truly struggling to make ends meet, "big-time" sports and all..

(I do understand that athletics at the D-3 level are *supposed* to be nearly-irrelevant, and treated as though they're "just for fun", but clearly that isn't exactly the case at certain schools.)


It would be superbly egalitarian for the private D-3 institutions themselves to quit pretending to see the Emperor's new clothes, and to fund an expansion of the field... (When you're asking $180,000 for a degree in Political Science or in Philosophy, you should have some walking-around money to blow as a result.)

Call me a dreamer, but the D-3 process leaves a lot to be desired, and it's really all on D-3.