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Time for a change at UVM
- Thread starter olive.juice
- Start date
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Did you spot Bothwell on the "Grassy Knoll"? Maybe there was second shooter..........
Did you spot Bothwell on the "Grassy Knoll"? Maybe there was second shooter..........
Beentheredonethat
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Why is it so hard for everyone to believe what OJ is saying. What OJ is saying may or may not be personal but i again will say, it is very factual. Again if this were the coach of the Men's team and not a friend of the AD they would be gone. This is not speculation but merely facts. To put to rest why Bothwell is not with the team, he supposedly threw out his back in practice and is getting it taken care of.
OJ I agree with everything you say except that he has had 4 full years of recruiting. This is his 6th year so I believe it to be 5 full recruiting classes. The four that are there now and last years graduating class was his first full recruited class. Again interesting to note he only has 2 Srs and 2 Jrs left. It will be interesting to see how many of the 17 Fresh and Sophs will be there in 2 years.
Why is it so hard for everyone to believe what OJ is saying. What OJ is saying may or may not be personal but i again will say, it is very factual. Again if this were the coach of the Men's team and not a friend of the AD they would be gone. This is not speculation but merely facts. To put to rest why Bothwell is not with the team, he supposedly threw out his back in practice and is getting it taken care of.
OJ I agree with everything you say except that he has had 4 full years of recruiting. This is his 6th year so I believe it to be 5 full recruiting classes. The four that are there now and last years graduating class was his first full recruited class. Again interesting to note he only has 2 Srs and 2 Jrs left. It will be interesting to see how many of the 17 Fresh and Sophs will be there in 2 years.
olive.juice
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Nice OnMAA, but you did not answer the question. It was "where" should I stop. It is clear that there are not many answers (or solutions) for the facts that have been posted for over a month now. Several attempts to get off point of the orig. posting still brings us back to where we started yet no answers, just some cute attempts to mask the problems. Well, it is a new year and I pledge not to stop until he is gone. New Year's resolution. New Years theoretically should bring some positive energy to the issues however lets all be honest, this program is not going to be successful as long as he is coaching there. Period. It will only be a matter of time that the same facts will be restated here. Does anyone out there have some realistic answers or reasons to suggest that if this team only wins 7 or 8 games that he should remain? We'll see.
Beentheredonethat, thanks for the correction. It sickens me.
Nice OnMAA, but you did not answer the question. It was "where" should I stop. It is clear that there are not many answers (or solutions) for the facts that have been posted for over a month now. Several attempts to get off point of the orig. posting still brings us back to where we started yet no answers, just some cute attempts to mask the problems. Well, it is a new year and I pledge not to stop until he is gone. New Year's resolution. New Years theoretically should bring some positive energy to the issues however lets all be honest, this program is not going to be successful as long as he is coaching there. Period. It will only be a matter of time that the same facts will be restated here. Does anyone out there have some realistic answers or reasons to suggest that if this team only wins 7 or 8 games that he should remain? We'll see.
Beentheredonethat, thanks for the correction. It sickens me.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
I spoke to one of the players a week or so ago, and she was looking forward to getting back with the team and back on the ice, which they did Dec. 28. She did not allude to any problems with or on the team. She did say that the coach you've put on the chopping block is having some severe back problems, which are the reason for his absence, but the worst thing she said is that she thinks he's a good coach and hopes he's better soon, but that they would give it their best with or without him.
I spoke to one of the players a week or so ago, and she was looking forward to getting back with the team and back on the ice, which they did Dec. 28. She did not allude to any problems with or on the team. She did say that the coach you've put on the chopping block is having some severe back problems, which are the reason for his absence, but the worst thing she said is that she thinks he's a good coach and hopes he's better soon, but that they would give it their best with or without him.
Beentheredonethat
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
In response to DC 78-82 posting on the player who is glad to be back. My guess is this is a full scholarship Freshman who has not yet seen the light. If so, go back and ask her how she feels at the end of the season or at the end of next year. I would guess to say her answer will be much different. I too have spoken to players and this is not even close to the responses I have been getting. Things are not as rosey as this player is making them out to be.
In response to DC 78-82 posting on the player who is glad to be back. My guess is this is a full scholarship Freshman who has not yet seen the light. If so, go back and ask her how she feels at the end of the season or at the end of next year. I would guess to say her answer will be much different. I too have spoken to players and this is not even close to the responses I have been getting. Things are not as rosey as this player is making them out to be.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Well things never will be "as rosey as this player is making them out to be" if yours is the prevailing attitude. If these disgruntled players think that their coach, or hockey experience is the worst they'll ever have, their futures are indeed bleak, on the ice and in the real world. The past two recruiting classes have been strong, and next year's seems to be as well. If the "full scholarship Freshman who has not yet seen the light" expects the light to be turned on, and held for her, and to never falter in four years of school and hockey, IMHO that's a character flaw, and no winning percentage or coach can cure that.
The upperclassmen have seen a lot of improvement in talent and ability at UVM during their years regardless of what they think of their coaches. I have no knowledge of how they lead the team, but if it's not in a positive manner despite adversity, then they are a part of the problem instead of the solution.
Again, I have not heard anything that suggests the team is disillusioned, but regardless of whether the team is happy or not, why should anyone outside the program be the one to plant that seed?
Well things never will be "as rosey as this player is making them out to be" if yours is the prevailing attitude. If these disgruntled players think that their coach, or hockey experience is the worst they'll ever have, their futures are indeed bleak, on the ice and in the real world. The past two recruiting classes have been strong, and next year's seems to be as well. If the "full scholarship Freshman who has not yet seen the light" expects the light to be turned on, and held for her, and to never falter in four years of school and hockey, IMHO that's a character flaw, and no winning percentage or coach can cure that.
The upperclassmen have seen a lot of improvement in talent and ability at UVM during their years regardless of what they think of their coaches. I have no knowledge of how they lead the team, but if it's not in a positive manner despite adversity, then they are a part of the problem instead of the solution.
Again, I have not heard anything that suggests the team is disillusioned, but regardless of whether the team is happy or not, why should anyone outside the program be the one to plant that seed?
OnMAA
Vort Doen.....Heija Heija Heija
Re: Time for a change at UVM
I consider anyone from the "Inside" planting those seeds many times more evil.
I consider anyone from the "Inside" planting those seeds many times more evil.
Hux
Alfond to Ridder & rinks in between
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Yeah, yeah, we get it. Your Little Janey upperclassmen has been sitting on the bench, not getting the playing time she once did thanks to all those more talented frosh. Now you, not her, are *****in about the coach, and this and that. Get over it. Move on.
Yeah, yeah, we get it. Your Little Janey upperclassmen has been sitting on the bench, not getting the playing time she once did thanks to all those more talented frosh. Now you, not her, are *****in about the coach, and this and that. Get over it. Move on.
5 4 Fighting
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Doesn't anyone get it?
USCHO Fan Forum - Ultimate Source to get Coaches the Hell Out
Posters are 3 for 3. Seems to me that if you want someone out...this is the place to do it.
Doesn't anyone get it?
USCHO Fan Forum - Ultimate Source to get Coaches the Hell Out
Posters are 3 for 3. Seems to me that if you want someone out...this is the place to do it.
olive.juice
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Dartmouth 5---UVM 2
New Year---same results---some things just can't change.
This is about results and for 6 years now this is the reality. How long do you go before a change is made? 6 years?
Lets stay on point people. These results suck.
Dartmouth 5---UVM 2
New Year---same results---some things just can't change.
This is about results and for 6 years now this is the reality. How long do you go before a change is made? 6 years?
Lets stay on point people. These results suck.
Beentheredonethat
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Have you not looked at my sign in name. Why is it so hard for people to believe what really is going on. Why is it ok for College coaches to do and act anyway they want but as soon as someone calls them out on it, they're the evil ones. Get real people. This is not a witch hunt just the truth. My information is very factual and accurate. Sorry for all you posters who can't handle the truth. This team now has 12 games remaining and all but one is Hockey East. In order to get to double digit wins they need to go 7-5 the rest of the way. If you all claim this is one of the most talented Freshman class, then who should we look at for this lack of success. I would say the coach needs to take some accountability. Again this Forum is titled "Time for a change at UVM" If you don't want to discuss this, there are other sites.
Have you not looked at my sign in name. Why is it so hard for people to believe what really is going on. Why is it ok for College coaches to do and act anyway they want but as soon as someone calls them out on it, they're the evil ones. Get real people. This is not a witch hunt just the truth. My information is very factual and accurate. Sorry for all you posters who can't handle the truth. This team now has 12 games remaining and all but one is Hockey East. In order to get to double digit wins they need to go 7-5 the rest of the way. If you all claim this is one of the most talented Freshman class, then who should we look at for this lack of success. I would say the coach needs to take some accountability. Again this Forum is titled "Time for a change at UVM" If you don't want to discuss this, there are other sites.
olive.juice
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Hmmmm, SLU 6--UVM 1 Sad. I know SLU is hot but UVM is clearly Not. This is not the inspiring effort you would like going into the meat of HE. Looks like the girls just don't want to play for this man. It now looks like the team begins its annual (6 years now) swoon to the basement. Sad. Don't you think the coach sees a pattern here and feel some responsibility? We'll see.
Hmmmm, SLU 6--UVM 1 Sad. I know SLU is hot but UVM is clearly Not. This is not the inspiring effort you would like going into the meat of HE. Looks like the girls just don't want to play for this man. It now looks like the team begins its annual (6 years now) swoon to the basement. Sad. Don't you think the coach sees a pattern here and feel some responsibility? We'll see.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
If the coach is bad, work the AD, but don't hurt the current kids on the team by putting out the laundry for potential recruits.
The current team is at least competitive. 9 games won or tied against 7 different teams. 12 losses against 10 different teams.
More then a new coach, UVM needs goal scoring, just like 20 or so other programs. Not sure if UVM ever had a 10 goal kid, maybe that changes this year.
If the coach is bad, work the AD, but don't hurt the current kids on the team by putting out the laundry for potential recruits.
The current team is at least competitive. 9 games won or tied against 7 different teams. 12 losses against 10 different teams.
More then a new coach, UVM needs goal scoring, just like 20 or so other programs. Not sure if UVM ever had a 10 goal kid, maybe that changes this year.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Agreed. Coming into the season, returning players at Vermont had a total of 106 points in their college careers. A number of teams return more career points from a single player.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
I totally agree. Go to the AD or at least tell everyone who you are and what is your beef. It is only fair that an accused know his accuser. This is a very young team that will hopefully stay together and get better. From what I hear the women on this team really get along well which is pretty incredible considering the struggles they've had this year. The team is mostly Freshman and Sophs so they need to mature and get better. Also, the SLU game was not a good game to judge in my opinion since the team had significant numbers missing due to injuries, illness, etc. They started with less than 3 full lines of D and F and had more injuries during the game. By the third period they were only playing with 4 D and 7 F. Tough to succeed against anyone with such a young team with limited numbers, and even tougher against a hot SLU team. They are struggling so it will be tough to turn it around but hopefully they will grow from the experience to make for a better future.
I totally agree. Go to the AD or at least tell everyone who you are and what is your beef. It is only fair that an accused know his accuser. This is a very young team that will hopefully stay together and get better. From what I hear the women on this team really get along well which is pretty incredible considering the struggles they've had this year. The team is mostly Freshman and Sophs so they need to mature and get better. Also, the SLU game was not a good game to judge in my opinion since the team had significant numbers missing due to injuries, illness, etc. They started with less than 3 full lines of D and F and had more injuries during the game. By the third period they were only playing with 4 D and 7 F. Tough to succeed against anyone with such a young team with limited numbers, and even tougher against a hot SLU team. They are struggling so it will be tough to turn it around but hopefully they will grow from the experience to make for a better future.
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Re: Time for a change at UVM
Thank you all for reinforcing the points I have been making on deaf ears. Building a team doesn't happen overnight, and when people that don't have a stall in the locker room are vociferous in their judgement it compounds the problem in both it's current and future state. If you're not at practice and don't have a sweater with your number on the back at game time, watch with your mouth shut or don't watch at all.
Thank you all for reinforcing the points I have been making on deaf ears. Building a team doesn't happen overnight, and when people that don't have a stall in the locker room are vociferous in their judgement it compounds the problem in both it's current and future state. If you're not at practice and don't have a sweater with your number on the back at game time, watch with your mouth shut or don't watch at all.
Beentheredonethat
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
What length of time would you consider to be appropriate to build a team or see some sort of improvement? It's been 6 years now. Again as I have said the coach has had 5 years of recruiting under his belt. You should see some improvement by now. I would love to have this kind of job security. So what do you feel is a reasonable amount of time? 7, 8, 9 years? Sign me up for this job. As far as the AD goes, he has been approached about the situation but refuses to see any problems here. Again it is a known fact that the AD and coach Bothwell are very good friends and spend a fair amount of time together socially. There is certainly a conflict of interest here and don't tell me it's any different because you are not informed. Again, why is it so hard for you on the outside to think everything is A ok here at UVM women's hockey?
What length of time would you consider to be appropriate to build a team or see some sort of improvement? It's been 6 years now. Again as I have said the coach has had 5 years of recruiting under his belt. You should see some improvement by now. I would love to have this kind of job security. So what do you feel is a reasonable amount of time? 7, 8, 9 years? Sign me up for this job. As far as the AD goes, he has been approached about the situation but refuses to see any problems here. Again it is a known fact that the AD and coach Bothwell are very good friends and spend a fair amount of time together socially. There is certainly a conflict of interest here and don't tell me it's any different because you are not informed. Again, why is it so hard for you on the outside to think everything is A ok here at UVM women's hockey?
olive.juice
New member
Re: Time for a change at UVM
Well. 6 years to build a program? Have you seen what Northeastern, BU, and Maine have done to build programs in less that 6 years? Common factor. New coaches after 3 years of no improvement. If you feel 6 years is not enough, do you not need to see some improvement each year? Not so much at UVM if you look at the numbers. This program is going backwards and the numbers prove it. Look, this is the Hockey East. If UVM wants to continue to act like a lower tier division 1 program or more realistically a division 3 program as they have been doing then just do it and stop making excuses. A solid division 3 program (at significantly less cost) is nothing to be ashamed about. Pretending to be a mediocre division 1 program has become shameful. However, the roster is full of division 1 talent.
Just opinions. But facts don't lie. EastFan1, is not 12 losses to 10 different teams more of an example of the direction of this team? It is as if the facts are not good enough for people to see the light, now we have to twist the numbers to get off point. Really?
The team has 3 wins and is on track to maybe win 2 more if past practice (6 years worth) is any indication of how they perform. No fault of the girls who clearly work and play hard. Lets be honest here (again), this coach is not "building" this team. I won't even begin to address the AD suggestions as it has been stated within this thread that that option has beentheredonethat! several times over.
Well. 6 years to build a program? Have you seen what Northeastern, BU, and Maine have done to build programs in less that 6 years? Common factor. New coaches after 3 years of no improvement. If you feel 6 years is not enough, do you not need to see some improvement each year? Not so much at UVM if you look at the numbers. This program is going backwards and the numbers prove it. Look, this is the Hockey East. If UVM wants to continue to act like a lower tier division 1 program or more realistically a division 3 program as they have been doing then just do it and stop making excuses. A solid division 3 program (at significantly less cost) is nothing to be ashamed about. Pretending to be a mediocre division 1 program has become shameful. However, the roster is full of division 1 talent.
Just opinions. But facts don't lie. EastFan1, is not 12 losses to 10 different teams more of an example of the direction of this team? It is as if the facts are not good enough for people to see the light, now we have to twist the numbers to get off point. Really?
The team has 3 wins and is on track to maybe win 2 more if past practice (6 years worth) is any indication of how they perform. No fault of the girls who clearly work and play hard. Lets be honest here (again), this coach is not "building" this team. I won't even begin to address the AD suggestions as it has been stated within this thread that that option has beentheredonethat! several times over.
Re: Time for a change at UVM
There has been an incredible amount of improvement in the last 5 years.They have developed from a team that was an automatic win, and usually by a huge margin, to a team that is capable of, and has, taken down nationally ranked teams, and teams at the opposite end of the Hockey east rankings.
I checked collegehockeystats.net and just looked at a few numbers.
-----------------------GF---------GA--------W---L---T
2011 - 2012-----------40----------76--------3---12---6 (11 games remaining)
2010 - 2011-----------44----------77--------7---17---2
2009 - 2010-----------52----------90--------10--22--11
2008 - 2009-----------57---------124--------7---25---2
2007 - 2008-----------59---------104--------8---25---1
2006 - 2007-----------21---------145--------2---27---2
2005 - 2006-----------21---------112--------2---29---2
These stats tell me that the team has improved quite a bit. They're not winning a ton yet, but they're considerably more "in the game" than years ago. You can't fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom, and from the looks of the GA / GF, there has been some significant work done to fix the hole in the bucket.
This year, at least 10 of their 12 losses have come at the hands of teams who either are, or have been, in the Top 10 Nationally this year, and if you look at past years, not only was Hockey East still finding it's legs, most of UVM's OOC games were against teams such as Union, who at the time were also struggling to put 2 games a year in the W column.
Every team in Hockey East has improved in the past 5 years, so it's hard to just look at wins and losses and make a fair assessment of a team's progress. Have BC and BU improved more in the short time they've been committed D1 programs? I'd say so. But there are other variables. Look at location. As a UNH grad, I find UVM and the surrounding area to be very desirable, but there are a lot of kids who really want what living in the greater Boston area offers, whether it be cultural, ample public transportation, or proximity to other HE schools and a much less grueling travel schedule. Some just want the instant hope of winning a National Championship, so they choose a team that is knocking at the door, but as has been the case in the past with UNH, and seemingly this year at BU, and to an extent BC over the past four years, what you see on paper might look like the recipe for #1, but it doesn't always mix up that way.
Why are the Boston schools landing a lot of the top notch talent that might be the key to bringing UVM (or Maine, or UNH for that matter) to the top of Hockey East and beyond? Probably a combination of things, including the fact that a lot of the current players on those rosters played at the USA U-18 level for their current coaches. Some of the Canadian players want to play with their National team teammates. You have slammed your "full scholarship freshman" on numerous occasions, but that player could have just as easily gone to BC, BU or pretty much any where else she wanted to. She chose Vermont with eyes wide open, and in doing so, was a big influence in the decision of another high quality freshman to chose Vermont. There was no illusion of a National, or even conference championship looming on the near horizon - they picked that school specifically to help elevate the program, and in one instance, because of what the UVM head coach brought as a coach that the U-18's didn't - honest criticism and the chance to improve, and facing adversity is part of the process.
In this day of instant news and gossip transmission, negative words (which are largely just an outside person's biotching about their personal woes) are remembered a lot longer, and get spread a lot farther than a win loss record that on the surface, seems to be at a standstill. That is a disservice to the program and all those who are committed to it.
If you're not on the team, the best way to help this team improve and grow is to leave it to the players. They are adults, and if they have a concern, it's their responsibility to raise it. These young adults are very impressionable, and may take a specific "story" and generalize to apply that situation to the whole school. I can't count how many times I've heard someone in a rink comment to me, "Oh, such and such a school must be horrible because so and so is a great player and a great person and they're not coming back" 9.9 time out of ten, so and so either couldn't come back because they didn't take the student part of student-athlete seriously, or because they were homesick, found a new major, or wanted to play at a level they simply weren't at, but all people remember is the part about such and such program sucks. Why? Well, because someone told me so. The ultimate unrecruiter.
There has been an incredible amount of improvement in the last 5 years.They have developed from a team that was an automatic win, and usually by a huge margin, to a team that is capable of, and has, taken down nationally ranked teams, and teams at the opposite end of the Hockey east rankings.
I checked collegehockeystats.net and just looked at a few numbers.
-----------------------GF---------GA--------W---L---T
2011 - 2012-----------40----------76--------3---12---6 (11 games remaining)
2010 - 2011-----------44----------77--------7---17---2
2009 - 2010-----------52----------90--------10--22--11
2008 - 2009-----------57---------124--------7---25---2
2007 - 2008-----------59---------104--------8---25---1
2006 - 2007-----------21---------145--------2---27---2
2005 - 2006-----------21---------112--------2---29---2
These stats tell me that the team has improved quite a bit. They're not winning a ton yet, but they're considerably more "in the game" than years ago. You can't fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom, and from the looks of the GA / GF, there has been some significant work done to fix the hole in the bucket.
This year, at least 10 of their 12 losses have come at the hands of teams who either are, or have been, in the Top 10 Nationally this year, and if you look at past years, not only was Hockey East still finding it's legs, most of UVM's OOC games were against teams such as Union, who at the time were also struggling to put 2 games a year in the W column.
Every team in Hockey East has improved in the past 5 years, so it's hard to just look at wins and losses and make a fair assessment of a team's progress. Have BC and BU improved more in the short time they've been committed D1 programs? I'd say so. But there are other variables. Look at location. As a UNH grad, I find UVM and the surrounding area to be very desirable, but there are a lot of kids who really want what living in the greater Boston area offers, whether it be cultural, ample public transportation, or proximity to other HE schools and a much less grueling travel schedule. Some just want the instant hope of winning a National Championship, so they choose a team that is knocking at the door, but as has been the case in the past with UNH, and seemingly this year at BU, and to an extent BC over the past four years, what you see on paper might look like the recipe for #1, but it doesn't always mix up that way.
Why are the Boston schools landing a lot of the top notch talent that might be the key to bringing UVM (or Maine, or UNH for that matter) to the top of Hockey East and beyond? Probably a combination of things, including the fact that a lot of the current players on those rosters played at the USA U-18 level for their current coaches. Some of the Canadian players want to play with their National team teammates. You have slammed your "full scholarship freshman" on numerous occasions, but that player could have just as easily gone to BC, BU or pretty much any where else she wanted to. She chose Vermont with eyes wide open, and in doing so, was a big influence in the decision of another high quality freshman to chose Vermont. There was no illusion of a National, or even conference championship looming on the near horizon - they picked that school specifically to help elevate the program, and in one instance, because of what the UVM head coach brought as a coach that the U-18's didn't - honest criticism and the chance to improve, and facing adversity is part of the process.
In this day of instant news and gossip transmission, negative words (which are largely just an outside person's biotching about their personal woes) are remembered a lot longer, and get spread a lot farther than a win loss record that on the surface, seems to be at a standstill. That is a disservice to the program and all those who are committed to it.
If you're not on the team, the best way to help this team improve and grow is to leave it to the players. They are adults, and if they have a concern, it's their responsibility to raise it. These young adults are very impressionable, and may take a specific "story" and generalize to apply that situation to the whole school. I can't count how many times I've heard someone in a rink comment to me, "Oh, such and such a school must be horrible because so and so is a great player and a great person and they're not coming back" 9.9 time out of ten, so and so either couldn't come back because they didn't take the student part of student-athlete seriously, or because they were homesick, found a new major, or wanted to play at a level they simply weren't at, but all people remember is the part about such and such program sucks. Why? Well, because someone told me so. The ultimate unrecruiter.
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