Time for a change at UVM

[DC78-82]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Well, it was a game-tying goal in the final minute. Did it look from the video like the UConn player tipped it over her own goalie? The Vermont player in front didn't react like she'd gotten a piece of it.

I agree with you; a lot of hotly contested action all around, including some contact with the goalie. Hit any goalie enough times, and there isn't a team in the country that won't use their sticks to get the point across that future incidents won't be tolerated.

I tapped one of our goalies in practice a few weeks back (really just tapped, not swung, on the pads trying to get at a puck to avoid losing = sprinting) and got a nice cross check into the cross bar from one of my teammates!

It's easier for me to type at work than study video, so I could only take a quick and silent look

 

[EastFan1]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

It sounds like people are talking about two different things. Two posters suggested that a cheap shot to the head during a faceoff was caught on video. I wasn't thinking of ordinary poking and shoving after the goalie freezes. Maybe those posts were embellished. Maybe not. The video part interests me.

ARM - I agree it looks like UConn tipped it up and in.

 

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

It sounds like people are talking about two different things. Two posters suggested that a cheap shot to the head during a faceoff was caught on video. I wasn't thinking of ordinary poking and shoving after the goalie freezes. Maybe those posts were embellished. Maybe not. The video part interests me.

ARM - I agree it looks like UConn tipped it up and in.

I indicated that I saw it while watching the feed live. It jumped out at you because the stick went flying (of the hittee) and then the hittee fell to the ice clutching the side of her face and stayed there. The pair of players were behind the linesman dropping the puck in the offensive circle and therefore not really visible by refs (especially as the puck went flying the other way on face-off), but due to the camera angle from above, that corner was particularly visible on the webcast feed. It doesn't show you what happened in slo-mo (you would have to have recorded it through Quicktime as you were watching for that).

 

[Beentheredonethat]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

For a Vermont opinion, I'd say that UVM does not march to the same beat as the rest of the conference and that the more cosmopolitan and big city "push for profits" is not the kind of model that works for UVM women's hockey. It would be nice if it showcased more Vermont talent, but they have Norwich and St Mikes and Castleton to do that. They aren't going to win it all and the coach has stated he would like to qualify for the playoffs (not the loftiest of goals), so if you listened while you signed then you shouldnt be so strident. There is not the alumni push from a BU or BC to win, win, win and the national championships on the men's side to meet that expectation. We take it a little slower here in Vermont and appreciate what we have a bit more. The fact that the AD and the coach are invested in stability and steady sustainable growth means a lot more than this quarter's sales or pumping up the profits to compete with the bigger guys when this niche satisfies the local fans, the university and the alumnae. Folks come here for vacation and a different pace -- is it a wonder that the work ethic isn't as NY or Boston as you'd like? Doesn't make it bad -- just different.

PS -- nice weekend against Conn with two ties -- all those ties last year show that they are playing team tight -- perhaps if the coach didn't run 4 balanced lines and went with 2 stacked ones, he'd break through more often

You say that VT does not march to the beat of the rest of the conference and that of the big cities. Why then does VT Women's Hockey have the same # of scholarships as every other team in Hockey East and why do they recruit heavily from all over the world. They are also over paying the head coach a very sizable salary to the tune of $106,000 plus expenses. They have the same resources as all other schools in hockey east. You talk about the AD and Coach wanting steady and stable growth. This coach has had 5 years of recruiting. If it were any other coach they would have been fired but given this coach's relationship with the AD this won't happen. It shouldn't take 6 years to turn a team around. Look at North Eastern, BU and Maine to name a few. A good indicator is the Senior and JR class. There are only 2 players left in each class. These are both classes this coach has recruited. There has been a large exodus of full scholarship players from coach Bothwell. That should be a good indication of what kind of coach he has been. He has had to bring in classes of 7 and 10 the last two years. This team should not be in this position but the pattern continues and will as long as he is there. If you feel VT should take a more relaxed approach then take away the high salary and scholarships and leave Hockey East but until then the community and University should expect a lot more from their program and especially the leadership of this team, mainly coach Bothwell.

On another note. After reading all the post to date, I have to say that Olive Juice is right on the mark. He or she is clearly very vested in this program and everything that has been posted from OJ is very accurate. I can say that is still just the tip of the iceberg of what really has gone on with this team under the leadership of Bothwell. The time for a change was quite some time ago. I wonder how long coach Sneddon would have been around if he averaged 7 wins/year his first 6 years.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

You say that VT does not march to the beat of the rest of the conference and that of the big cities. Why then does VT Women's Hockey have the same # of scholarships as every other team in Hockey East and why do they recruit heavily from all over the world. They are also over paying the head coach a very sizable salary to the tune of $106,000 plus expenses. They have the same resources as all other schools in hockey east. You talk about the AD and Coach wanting steady and stable growth. This coach has had 5 years of recruiting. If it were any other coach they would have been fired but given this coach's relationship with the AD this won't happen. It shouldn't take 6 years to turn a team around. Look at North Eastern, BU and Maine to name a few. A good indicator is the Senior and JR class. There are only 2 players left in each class. These are both classes this coach has recruited. There has been a large exodus of full scholarship players from coach Bothwell. That should be a good indication of what kind of coach he has been. He has had to bring in classes of 7 and 10 the last two years. This team should not be in this position but the pattern continues and will as long as he is there. If you feel VT should take a more relaxed approach then take away the high salary and scholarships and leave Hockey East but until then the community and University should expect a lot more from their program and especially the leadership of this team, mainly coach Bothwell.

On another note. After reading all the post to date, I have to say that Olive Juice is right on the mark. He or she is clearly very vested in this program and everything that has been posted from OJ is very accurate. I can say that is still just the tip of the iceberg of what really has gone on with this team under the leadership of Bothwell. The time for a change was quite some time ago. I wonder how long coach Sneddon would have been around if he averaged 7 wins/year his first 6 years.

Welcome Beentheredonethat. You are right on my point for starting this thread from the beginning. You too are clearly vested in this program. I wonder if our paths have crossed? Other posters seem to get off point but THIS is the hard truth and until Bothwell leaves or is removed, this program will continue to tread water, remain in the bottom of HE, and yes be somewhat embarrassing, and all of this is sad for everyone and anyone who is connected to this program. Something absolutely MUST be done!

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

First Niagara, then Quinnipiac, then Brown, then Adrian, and now UVM. Just check the number of first time/new posters that appear in this thread and nowhere else. Tells you more than anything else. Made my opinion on such things quite clear in the past.

Have known Bothwell and Gilligan for about 7 years. Stand up individuals who both have forgotten more about hockey than many posters on here will ever know.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

First Niagara, then Quinnipiac, then Brown, then Adrian, and now UVM. Just check the number of first time/new posters that appear in this thread and nowhere else. Tells you more than anything else. Made my opinion on such things quite clear in the past.

Have known Bothwell and Gilligan for about 7 years. Stand up individuals who both have forgotten more about hockey than many posters on here will ever know.

Well OnMAA last time I checked each of these teams have new coaches fairly recently. But not UVM. Why is this? This is exactly my point and yes my agenda here. Lets be honest, EVERYONE who posts on this board has an agenda. New people come and go all the time. Some simply view threads and some choose to use it to move their agenda. Does it really matter how many "first time/new posters" appear, disappear, reappear? What exactly does it tell you? What exactly is your opinion on such things? You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself and your involvement in USCHO forum. This threads agenda is to bring awareness to the inequities at UVM, advocate for a coaching change, and to give certain people a voice. What else might people use this board for? Agendas. Some admit it, some don't.

Not sure what you mean by "known" these coaches for 7 years. I too have known them for some time but I am sure in a very different way than you say you do or think. Gilligan---no one better than him, period. Stand up person---absolutely. Bothwell not so much. But if you look at coaching success (hay, what a concept) then Bothwell is not in the same league as Gilligan and has no business remaining as the coach at UVM.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Well OnMAA last time I checked each of these teams have new coaches fairly recently. But not UVM. Why is this? This is exactly my point and yes my agenda here. Lets be honest, EVERYONE who posts on this board has an agenda. New people come and go all the time. Some simply view threads and some choose to use it to move their agenda. Does it really matter how many "first time/new posters" appear, disappear, reappear? What exactly does it tell you? What exactly is your opinion on such things? You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself and your involvement in USCHO forum. This threads agenda is to bring awareness to the inequities at UVM, advocate for a coaching change, and to give certain people a voice. What else might people use this board for? Agendas. Some admit it, some don't.

Not sure what you mean by "known" these coaches for 7 years. I too have known them for some time but I am sure in a very different way than you say you do or think. Gilligan---no one better than him, period. Stand up person---absolutely. Bothwell not so much. But if you look at coaching success (hay, what a concept) then Bothwell is not in the same league as Gilligan and has no business remaining as the coach at UVM.

You missed the whole point. Do some research on the contents written on this furom over the last six years, and you will be able to answer all your questions, including the items I was alluding to. !

 

[Beentheredonethat]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

You missed the whole point. Do some research on the contents written on this furom over the last six years, and you will be able to answer all your questions, including the items I was alluding to. !

I'm not quite sure what you mean either OnMAA. You say you have known these individuals for 7 years and yes Gillie is a great guy. This thread is directed at Bothwell. I'm curious how many games you have seen coach Bothwell coach or if you've ever played for him. If so, you would have a very different opinion. Gilly is a lame duck for this team. Coach B. is so insecure about his ability to coach that he very frequently will allow Gilly on the bench and don't tell me it's b/c Gilly is out recruiting b/c many games he's there and sitting in the stands. All you need to do is ask all the players who have played for Bothwell their true feelings and you will see this is not about a few disgruntled players and playing time. This is about a man who not only fails as a coach but as a person in the way he treats young women. If you look around, coach Bothwell has far more full scholarship players leaving than any other program. This does not say much about him when the players he recruited say they loved their team and teammates but just could not play for him. And please don't tell me this is hearsay b/c I speak from experience. I ask that you OnMAA do a little research and ask around before you comment on this.

 

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Lets be honest, EVERYONE who posts on this board has an agenda. New people come and go all the time. Some simply view threads and some choose to use it to move their agenda... What else might people use this board for? Agendas. Some admit it, some don't.

I now feel like I'm in group therapy. "I'm ARM, and I have an agenda." I thought that it was just to talk about women's hockey with other fans, and when I first started coming here more than a decade ago, there weren't many places to do that. If that qualifies as an agenda, then I guess that's mine, except for ...

This thread is directed at Bothwell.

These threads are always directed at somebody. And over the years, we've seen a lot of them. Many of the regulars object to them in principle. We are talking about people who have made the game of hockey their life's work. Somebody is unhappy, with or without merit, that's not for me to say. They start a thread, and any type of character assassination of the target "Coach of the Day" seems to be permitted, always performed anonymously. The justification is that it is "all about the kids", like they are Jerry Lewis or something. Well, Jerry always looked into the camera when asking for support and put his name out there with his cause. My problem with these threads is basic fairness. Were I to be on trial for some crime of which I was accused, I wouldn't want my case tried on an internet forum by people anonymously saying what a lousy human being I've proved myself to be. Even at Penn State, where I think we'd all agree that the alleged crimes are far worse than the sum of the sins committed by the coaches that wind up "on trial" here on a regular basis, the accusers were required to identify themselves to someone in authority. How does any coach defend him or herself against the accusations one sees here? It's impossible, because they are murky hints suggesting that the coach is unfit for the job, usually on the grounds that they are deficient as a human being. A serious charge, in my opinion, and one that goes beyond the stated goal of a coaching change.

There should be a better way to achieve a coaching change than the one that people are currently choosing. If our society does not support that, then what you should really be trying to change is that society, because it is by far more flawed and more important a problem than wins and losses on an ice rink by an underachieving college hockey team.

Thank you for the time to further my agenda. Now back to yours.

 

[dwb]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

currently,there are no vermonters on the norwich women's team.the recruits come from all over the US and Canada

 

[Phil D. Stands]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

currently,there are no vermonters on the norwich women's team.the recruits come from all over the US and Canada

I feel your pain, but I believe there are three members of last year's team LeClerc, Cone and Banfield who are sporting sparkling new national championship rings -- I think that can hold the state for a bit. Not sure of your point however.

 

[offtheice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I'm not quite sure what you mean either OnMAA. You say you have known these individuals for 7 years and yes Gillie is a great guy. This thread is directed at Bothwell. I'm curious how many games you have seen coach Bothwell coach or if you've ever played for him. If so, you would have a very different opinion. Gilly is a lame duck for this team. Coach B. is so insecure about his ability to coach that he very frequently will allow Gilly on the bench and don't tell me it's b/c Gilly is out recruiting b/c many games he's there and sitting in the stands. All you need to do is ask all the players who have played for Bothwell their true feelings and you will see this is not about a few disgruntled players and playing time. This is about a man who not only fails as a coach but as a person in the way he treats young women. If you look around, coach Bothwell has far more full scholarship players leaving than any other program. This does not say much about him when the players he recruited say they loved their team and teammates but just could not play for him. And please don't tell me this is hearsay b/c I speak from experience. I ask that you OnMAA do a little research and ask around before you comment on this.

Flanagan also has alot of players leaving in the last years

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Curious. I hear---or see---or hear--that Mr. Bothwell is not practicing with the team or not on campus. I know it is exam and holiday time but teams still practice don't they?--at least the competitive ones--however there is no sign of him. Curious.

 

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I know it is exam and holiday time but teams still practice don't they?

I'm not sure of the specifics, but I think the NCAA limits the number of weeks that teams can hold full practices. So because women's hockey starts so early and goes so late, teams usually take a break over the holidays. For example, Minnesota played Sunday and I don't think they start practicing again until January, the week before the next series. Obviously most players skate on their own, and maybe some even have a form of captains' practice, but by this time of year, it seems they need the rest more than the work.

 

[Hux]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Curious. I hear---or see---or hear--that Mr. Bothwell is not practicing with the team or not on campus. I know it is exam and holiday time but teams still practice don't they?--at least the competitive ones--however there is no sign of him. Curious.

Ah, they have this thing called recruiting. It is where coaches go out and watch prospective players, recruit prospective players, and meet with prospective players and parents to secure a commitment. It usually requires a trip away from campus. dumbass

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I hear---or see---or hear--that .....

You on the Juice again? Maybe your either Hearing or Seeing too much. Check that. You are speculating too much. .

Coaches use the break to recruit. For many teams there are what they call O-Practices during the exam periods. Optional Practices or Open Ice. Coaches are not always present for those, and as ARM indicated, there are also regulations, both School and NCAA wise limiting activities during these periods. Many teams re-start with formal practices shortly after Christmas. Last year one of my D had to be back on Dec 26th, this year they start back up on the 28th. Schedules vary from school to school. For example Princeton has exams in January. Colgate has not played in the last three weeks.

 

[scrambledlegs]

Curious. I hear---or see---or hear--that Mr. Bothwell is not practicing with the team or not on campus. I know it is exam and holiday time but teams still practice don't they?--at least the competitive ones--however there is no sign of him. Curious.

Most of the HockeyEast teams are in finals over these few weeks. That is why games ended last weekend. This week is most likely the reading period and the players should be using this time to study for exams. Providence never has any type of practice during this period.

Also, the second half of the season is twice as hard as the first half so coaches, if they are smart, give the players a break (for mental health and to heal)

Stop trying to turn everything into a conviction.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Ah, they have this thing called recruiting. It is where coaches go out and watch prospective players, recruit prospective players, and meet with prospective players and parents to secure a commitment. It usually requires a trip away from campus. dumbass

Hux. Not very nice. I have been around too long to know what recruiting is and what exactly happens during this time. I may be closer to this issue than you know or maybe even care. Maybe I was recruited, maybe not. Maybe I am on the team or was on the team, maybe not. Maybe I am a parent, maybe not. Maybe I am staff, maybe not. But it does not matter. Every year since he has been coach, Mr. Bothwell remains with the team right up until break, but not this particular year for whatever reason. Gilligan and Kimball are the prime recruiters. Bothwell has the final say however, he typically is ALLWAYS with the team. But not this year. All I am saying that this is curious. I speculate that some heat is being applied or being felt by the coach and he is not with the team for some curious reason.

This is not about a conviction. Trust me, numerous attempts have been made to the AD and the administration to make them aware of the problems and issues with this program and it falls on deaf ears. For almost 7 years now. When will they SEE and understand that the results are not worth the investment? The coach for over 6 years with 4 full recruiting classes under his belt, girls leaving every year, an average of 7 wins per year and, well where should I stop(?) is the one who is not being held accountable and he is just not cutting it. Period. What else might people out there suggest we do to bring this to an end?

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Hux. Not very nice. I have been around too long to know what recruiting is and what exactly happens during this time. I may be closer to this issue than you know or maybe even care. Maybe I was recruited, maybe not. Maybe I am on the team or was on the team, maybe not. Maybe I am a parent, maybe not. Maybe I am staff, maybe not. But it does not matter. Every year since he has been coach, Mr. Bothwell remains with the team right up until break, but not this particular year for whatever reason. Gilligan and Kimball are the prime recruiters. Bothwell has the final say however, he typically is ALLWAYS with the team. But not this year. All I am saying that this is curious. I speculate that some heat is being applied or being felt by the coach and he is not with the team for some curious reason.

This is not about a conviction. Trust me, numerous attempts have been made to the AD and the administration to make them aware of the problems and issues with this program and it falls on deaf ears. For almost 7 years now. When will they SEE and understand that the results are not worth the investment? The coach for over 6 years with 4 full recruiting classes under his belt, girls leaving every year, an average of 7 wins per year and, well where should I stop(?) is the one who is not being held accountable and he is just not cutting it. Period. What else might people out there suggest we do to bring this to an end?

Hmmm. Maybe a dumbass...maybe not?