Time for a change at UVM

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Well OnMAA...I apologize if I offended. I did not realize this was such an exclusive board. I could not agree with you more on the drinking/partying issue. Going forward, I will be careful to state simply the facts of what I know and not editorialize. Really though, the facts are pretty cut and dry here and if you want to call it an attempt to run a coach out of town this is your prerogative however, the hard facts are pretty scary.

I found this whole tread way to one sided. Glad my post triggered some reactions. If people want to provide some constructive critisism, on how the team is or should do on the ice, hockey strategy etc, I'm all ears, but to just come on here as a new poster and lambast a coach for the fact there is too much partying on campus. Give me a break. Know for a fact, at least one player was dismissed from the team in the recent past for being too much of a party girl. And as another poster wrote earlier, there are party girls on pretty much every team, not unique to UVM.

 

[Bauer86]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

that girl that was released for partying was on her sixth drinking offense. it took her getting in trouble six times for her finally to be released from the program...the girls at uvm (like any school) should be aware that as a division 1 athlete, there needs to be sacrifices made. but if the girls realize that with their coach is not providing punishment offenders, they think that they can have their cake and eat it too so the bothwell has to be held responsible for the partying. other schools have a lot of partying going on as well but if those players cross a line there are consequences. there are no consequences for "going too hard" at uvm.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

...the girls at uvm (like any school) should be aware that as a division 1 athlete, there needs to be sacrifices made.

100% agree with that. Witness my earlier post on this very subject.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

that girl that was released for partying was on her sixth drinking offense. it took her getting in trouble six times for her finally to be released from the program...the girls at uvm (like any school) should be aware that as a division 1 athlete, there needs to be sacrifices made. but if the girls realize that with their coach is not providing punishment offenders, they think that they can have their cake and eat it too so the bothwell has to be held responsible for the partying. other schools have a lot of partying going on as well but if those players cross a line there are consequences. there are no consequences for "going too hard" at uvm.

This is a true statement...Agree 100%...Further, from my view...this is only one of Bothwells flaws as a D1 hockey coach/administrator.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Heard VT 5-1 loss was not pretty...losses are mounting up...when is this enough? Also hear grumblings about certain freshmen wanting out...same story...different year...

 

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I am not at all surprised to hear such stories about Bothwell, nor some of the other coaches mentioned, as well as several others who were not mentioned specifically. Some of the worst offenders are actually in programs with winning records. The difference is that people become much more vocal about problems once a team's losses mount as well. I don't believe Murphy was ever any worse than several others...it is the record that ultimately becomes the final nail in the coffin, and perhaps the only thing an AD ever actually cares about anyways.

If you happen to know players on a large number of D1 teams as I do, you come to realize that there are a significant number of very unhappy players in a high proportion of programs year after year. For them, the atmosphere is such that their university years are not anywhere near the best 4 years of their life that they had been led to believe it would be. If you don't happen to have such direct inside knowledge of particular programs, player attrition or transfer rates over several years generally provide a good clue.

Frankly, while good coaches do exist, the overall quality of the coaching at the D1 level is often surprisingly lacking given the salaries and stature, at least in women's hockey. And in many cases a definite step down from the coaching and development players had enjoyed in minor hockey. As a side generalization, I do agree with the comment from one of the posters above that older coaches who have not had children of their own may be a particular watch out, in terms of their ability to relate effectively. Few coaches have had any formal leadership training much less natural skill at it--their key qualification was they were just good athletes. Most probably played for coaches with limited hockey knowledge--not to mention pre-historic 1960's era management styles.

Certainly players need to be held accountable for their actions. I don't think anyone would dispute that in the least. Similarly, in normal work settings, most of us as employees are also held accountable for our actions, and typically subject to annual performance reviews which includes 360 degree feedback if we lead others as managers. Where we are found lacking, we are given "development" plans, retraining, and goals for improvement. If we don't show improvement, we are shown the door.

What is truly remarkable in this day and age is that D1 coaches as a group, unlike their players or the rest of us, appear to have little to no such accountability. As most accounts suggest, AD's typically turn a blind eye to any evidence of poor leadership and management skills and tactics, poor morale, emotional abuse, or poor team performance....until such unsolicited feedback eventually becomes too overwhelming over extended timeframes to continue to ignore any longer. It seems AD's just don't want to know, and once they know, they don't want to act either, short of either significant legal liability or appalling extended loss records which may threaten funding.

I have never been a fan of those who chose to run down individuals in public forums. It doesn't take any guts to hide behind a handle, rather than address issues directly with those responsible, or with their superiors. However, as many accounts in many programs attest, it has become evident that you are dealing with a sports environment where it is quite obvious that such direct efforts would be clearly futile at best. I'm becoming more inclined to believe then that perhaps there is something to be said after all for at least warning away those who still have other options. It may be the only form of accountability that actually exists; the impact on recruitment.

 

[sillywench]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have never been a fan of those who chose to run down individuals in public forums. It doesn't take any guts to hide behind a handle, rather than address issues directly with those responsible, or with their superiors. However, as many accounts in many programs attest, it has become evident that you are dealing with a sports environment where it is quite obvious that such direct efforts would be clearly futile at best. I'm becoming more inclined to believe then that perhaps there is something to be said after all for at least warning away those who still have other options. It may be the only form of accountability that actually exists; the impact on recruitment.

In addition, most athletes are relatively powerless in the hockey machine. Allowing the critical conversation to take place here allows those with an interest to gauge the credibility of the complainer/complaint and weigh it in the decision making process for where to place themselves.

Some kids can deal with anything - others need a 'safer' environment. The 'official' PR for any coach/hockey is usually extremely uninformative. Talking openly is all the community has to help these kids thrive.

 

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I'm becoming more inclined to believe then that perhaps there is something to be said after all for at least warning away those who still have other options. It may be the only form of accountability that actually exists; the impact on recruitment.

There might be benefit if all the assessments offered were fair and accurate. I've heard from more than one parent who was very unhappy, while the daughter did describe it as the best four years of her life. So I'd encourage anyone that is going through the recruiting process to take anything said in an anonymous post with a grain of salt. If you want to learn more about a program that you are considering, contact players on the team. They will be able to offer actual eyewitness stories of what life on the team is like, not second or third-hand accounts that may have mutated like messages in a game of telephone. If you find your prospective teammates to be less than friendly and open, that will be a greater warning than anything read on here. Sure the coach is important, but your teammates play an even bigger part in how you will remember those four years.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

there might be benefit if all the assessments offered were fair and accurate. I've heard from more than one parent who was very unhappy, while the daughter did describe it as the best four years of her life. So i'd encourage anyone that is going through the recruiting process to take anything said in an anonymous post with a grain of salt. If you want to learn more about a program that you are considering, contact players on the team. They will be able to offer actual eyewitness stories of what life on the team is like, not second or third-hand accounts that may have mutated like messages in a game of telephone. If you find your prospective teammates to be less than friendly and open, that will be a greater warning than anything read on here. Sure the coach is important, but your teammates play an even bigger part in how you will remember those four years.

this!~

 

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

There might be benefit if all the assessments offered were fair and accurate. I've heard from more than one parent who was very unhappy, while the daughter did describe it as the best four years of her life. So I'd encourage anyone that is going through the recruiting process to take anything said in an anonymous post with a grain of salt. If you want to learn more about a program that you are considering, contact players on the team. They will be able to offer actual eyewitness stories of what life on the team is like, not second or third-hand accounts that may have mutated like messages in a game of telephone. If you find your prospective teammates to be less than friendly and open, that will be a greater warning than anything read on here. Sure the coach is important, but your teammates play an even bigger part in how you will remember those four years.

I certainly would not disagree with your comments as a whole.

While it is true that a particular assessment may not always be completely fair and accurate, (or perhaps accurate, but not more broadly experienced) one would certainly expect there to also be many more positive rebuttals in response if it is atypical. In any case, a pattern of negative assessments are certainly a red flag to ask a whole lot of questions of those currently, and previously, involved in a particular program.

As far as contacting players on a team, of course that is always recommended. However, you must likewise take what current players say with a grain of salt, as is often evidenced by comments they make for media consumption. Since anything they may say to a recruit has a tendency to get back to the coach one way or another, they tend to be understandably guarded about telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is important to be very specific in your questions, and pay close attention not only to what they say, but how they say it, and most importantly what they don't say. In addition, it is important to talk not just to a team's star players, but to those of the rank and file, for their experiences with a coach are often markedly different. You are most likely to get a more honest perspective from former players if you can do so.

Certainly your teammates are typically the best part of your experience, but it must be remembered that other than the freshmen, most of those on the team you meet in the recruiting process will not be there for most of your time on the team. With every recruiting cycle, about 1/4 of the team turns over--the changes in personalities and senior leadership within the team often has a dramatic effect on chemistry from year to year, an effect which is difficult to predict. Regardless of the best efforts of one's teammates to bond as a group, a coach's behaviours, priorities, and reward systems will have a significant effect on either building on or sabotaging whatever natural chemistry may exist. There are infinite cases of players whose negative experiences in college hockey stemmed from the coach, but I suspect very few whose negative experiences actually stemmed from their teammates.

 

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

There are infinite cases of players whose negative experiences in college hockey stemmed from the coach, but I suspect very few whose negative experiences actually stemmed from their teammates.

I'd be surprised if it is that disparate. A player has three coaches, 20 teammates, and human nature being what it is, those 20 aren't going to get along great all of the time. Plus they often live together, and roommates frequently wind up ostracizing one of their number. If that's not the true, then hockey teams are a much kinder, gentler model than our society as a whole. As with bullying, it is easier to be open and tell someone, "My coach is a jerk," than to admit to others and oneself, "None of my roommates like me." Still, I hope that you're right in the case of women's hockey. I'm positive that would not apply in sports like football and men's basketball.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I certainly would not disagree with your comments as a whole.

While it is true that a particular assessment may not always be completely fair and accurate, (or perhaps accurate, but not more broadly experienced) one would certainly expect there to also be many more positive rebuttals in response if it is atypical. In any case, a pattern of negative assessments are certainly a red flag to ask a whole lot of questions of those currently, and previously, involved in a particular program.

As far as contacting players on a team, of course that is always recommended. However, you must likewise take what current players say with a grain of salt, as is often evidenced by comments they make for media consumption. Since anything they may say to a recruit has a tendency to get back to the coach one way or another, they tend to be understandably guarded about telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is important to be very specific in your questions, and pay close attention not only to what they say, but how they say it, and most importantly what they don't say. In addition, it is important to talk not just to a team's star players, but to those of the rank and file, for their experiences with a coach are often markedly different. You are most likely to get a more honest perspective from former players if you can do so.

Certainly your teammates are typically the best part of your experience, but it must be remembered that other than the freshmen, most of those on the team you meet in the recruiting process will not be there for most of your time on the team. With every recruiting cycle, about 1/4 of the team turns over--the changes in personalities and senior leadership within the team often has a dramatic effect on chemistry from year to year, an effect which is difficult to predict. Regardless of the best efforts of one's teammates to bond as a group, a coach's behaviours, priorities, and reward systems will have a significant effect on either building on or sabotaging whatever natural chemistry may exist. There are infinite cases of players whose negative experiences in college hockey stemmed from the coach, but I suspect very few whose negative experiences actually stemmed from their teammates.

Ahhh, a microcosm of real Life in the Corporate world. Changes happen all the time. In a larger corporation, it is not uncommon, to have a new boss within a year from your hiring date. So my message to players is. Better get used to it and learn how to operate in a changing evironment, to work and play with 25 or more people, of whom you may only like half, and hate a few. This is the very reason why playing a varsity sport is such a good training ground to learn how to operate in a team formation. Do you want to hire someone who bails at the first hint of conflict or trouble. ?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Sure the coach is important, but your teammates play an even bigger part in how you will remember those four years.

Amen.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I'd be surprised if it is that disparate. A player has three coaches, 20 teammates, and human nature being what it is, those 20 aren't going to get along great all of the time. Plus they often live together, and roommates frequently wind up ostracizing one of their number. If that's not the true, then hockey teams are a much kinder, gentler model than our society as a whole. As with bullying, it is easier to be open and tell someone, "My coach is a jerk," than to admit to others and oneself, "None of my roommates like me." Still, I hope that you're right in the case of women's hockey. I'm positive that would not apply in sports like football and men's basketball.

Human nature being what it is, obviously there is no way you are going to be great friends with all 20+ teammates, some you love...some not so much, and conflicts will inevitably occur. However, you certainly don't need to be roommates with those you don't get along well with. I would think that in most cases, the great friendships with some teammates would generally compensate for any strained relationships you might have with others. In any case, those teammates causing problems typically have little authority over you.

It's possible to limit contact and the impact on you of teammates you don't care for (or don't care for you) to some extent. I don't know how you could possibly do the same with coaches.

 

[pucko]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Human nature being what it is, obviously there is no way you are going to be great friends with all 20+ teammates, some you love...some not so much, and conflicts will inevitably occur. However, you certainly don't need to be roommates with those you don't get along well with. I would think that in most cases, the great friendships with some teammates would generally compensate for any strained relationships you might have with others. In any case, those teammates causing problems typically have little authority over you.

It's possible to limit contact and the impact on you of teammates you don't care for (or don't care for you) to some extent. I don't know how you could possibly do the same with coaches.

Trillium, while I may not agree or disagree with some of your statements what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in? What about a girl that is sent away to college that drinks too much, parties too hard, and doesn't have her priorities straight? You're essentially saying that the coach needs to give her a speech - at the DIVISION ONE LEVEL - and say Hey, stop drinking, you're jeopardizing your play and the team. Shouldn't she already know that? Shouldn't her parents have said to her 'Look, you have this amazing opportunity to play at the highest level of hockey, make smart choices'. I'm sorry but kids are getting away WAY too easily with their behavior these days. It's always the coaches fault or they didn't like their teammates, etc, etc. Once anything goes wrong like a player is benched, they don't like the way a coached looked at them, you name it, suddenly they are signing their transfer forms faster than you can say your own name. And the PARENTS are 100% supporting this!
I also hate to burst your bubble but the youth coaches, before these girls get to college, are equally as responsible for these kids behaviors and priorities. There are girls playing college hockey that don't know how to play defense. They don't know how to take a proper slap shot. They think that skating through everyone is a style of hockey. Because that is how they are taught (or not taught) and habits are very hard to break, especially by the time you get to college.
I would just like to make it known that kids these days need to have fewer excuses offered to them (the coach sucks, their teammates suck) and more responsiblity put on their own actions and choices and start building some leaders instead of excuse makers.
Trillium, there is no malice towards you on this, it's just how I feel.

 

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have been a fan of the UVM women for a while and I don't see any reason (or resources) that causes someone to call for a change at this point. It is very competitive to attract talent to a team that struggles at the bottom of a very tough conference, and that does not change overnight. UVM has put the resources behind this effort to yield results, but it isn't happening in the four years that everyone wants. Meanwhile, they have the best local female hockey player that Vermont has produced and they have great academic standards and they work as a team. I would love to have my daughter there with a coach who is passionate about improving and winning and who isn't off on the next bus and is of a high character caliber himself. I predict improvement in these next 4 years.

 

[Bauer86]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

"what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in"...pucko...how are the parents responsible for how their kids act at college? how are parents supposed to control their daughters' partying habits other than tell them what they expect? the coach is the adult in charge of their program and along with that head position comes the responsibility to give their players expectations...if those expectations (not to drink for example) are not met there needs to be consequences. It is not youth coaches and teachers that are responsible for college kids' partying habits
I do agree with you in that girls now offer way too many excuses...but excuses are different than reasons and if the reasons are strong enough...that player has every right to leave a program.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in? What about a girl that is sent away to college that drinks too much, parties too hard, and doesn't have her priorities straight?You're essentially saying that the coach needs to give her a speech - at the DIVISION ONE LEVEL - and say Hey, stop drinking, you're jeopardizing your play and the team. Shouldn't she already know that? Shouldn't her parents have said to her 'Look, you have this amazing opportunity to play at the highest level of hockey, make smart choices'. I'm sorry but kids are getting away WAY too easily with their behavior these days. It's always the coaches fault or they didn't like their teammates, etc, etc. Once anything goes wrong like a player is benched, they don't like the way a coached looked at them, you name it, suddenly they are signing their transfer forms faster than you can say your own name. And the PARENTS are 100% supporting this!

When did I ever say ANY of that?? I said that athletes need to be held accountable for their behaviour. That means by themselves. By their teammates. By their coaches and by their parents.

The point I was making is that coaches equally need to be held accountable for their behaviour, like everyone else. In the current environment they are not. Division 1 coaches in American society tend to be worshipped, and seen as capable of doing no wrong (at least as long as they are winning). Even when issues are brought to the AD, they are ignored. The recent Penn State situation and the firing of Paterno et al --20+ years after the fact is an extreme example to illustrate the point. The lackof accountability certain creates an environment where abuses of power are possible. Everyone seems to be ignoring this point, and does not see that this is a big problem. For example, where are the annual performance reviews and 360 degree feedback common in business management? How many leaders do you know in the private sector who have an dissatisfied and demoralized staff and/or who achieve poor results year after year who continue to keep their jobs? I don't know many successful companies who would continue to employ managers with the questionable leadership skills and management styles common to some coaches.

The responses seem to be reinforcing the point I was making. The Division 1 coach is typically assumed to be blameless. The common conclusion reached is that it is always, or usually the athlete's fault if things don't work out.

Since athletes leave certain programs at higher rates than the norm, or stories publicly abound about how unpleasant their experiences were about particular coaches year after year, in the grand scheme of things it's quite likely to have quite a bit to do with the coach. As they say, where there is smoke, there is fire.

I also hate to burst your bubble but the youth coaches, before these girls get to college, are equally as responsible for these kids behaviors and priorities. There are girls playing college hockey that don't know how to play defense. They don't know how to take a proper slap shot. They think that skating through everyone is a style of hockey. Because that is how they are taught (or not taught) and habits are very hard to break, especially by the time you get to college.
I would just like to make it known that kids these days need to have fewer excuses offered to them (the coach sucks, their teammates suck) and more responsiblity put on their own actions and choices and start building some leaders instead of excuse makers.
Trillium, there is no malice towards you on this, it's just how I feel.

I don't disagree with this either. I would only add that coaches don't need anyone else making excuses for their behaviour either...or blaming athletes for their own failings.

But I am not trying to imply that the blame is always with the coach, anymore than it is with an athlete. Things are never so black and while. Just trying to add some balance to the discussion.

 

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have been a fan of the UVM women for a while and I don't see any reason (or resources) that causes someone to call for a change at this point. It is very competitive to attract talent to a team that struggles at the bottom of a very tough conference, and that does not change overnight. UVM has put the resources behind this effort to yield results, but it isn't happening in the four years that everyone wants. Meanwhile, they have the best local female hockey player that Vermont has produced and they have great academic standards and they work as a team. I would love to have my daughter there with a coach who is passionate about improving and winning and who isn't off on the next bus and is of a high character caliber himself. I predict improvement in these next 4 years.

,

Mr. Kitty you are completely off base here. While I agree with most responses to this thread, especially the ones referring to accountability and responsibility of coaches and players, the facts regarding Bothwell's lack of any success at UVM is the point. You say you have been watching this program for a while? Really? As Gilligan has brought in quality talent for the past 6 years do you believe that 6 or 7 wins a year (out of 35 games) is acceptable? This is LACK OF SUCCESS and the simple reason to CHANGE COACHES as 3 of the bottom dwelling teams have done in the last 4 years! How long should players, parents, staff, students, the AD (good luck with this one), and maybe even Bothwell himself wait to have success. It does not take 6 years to build a program let alone have some success while taking small steps each year. This is NOT happening at UVM.

FYI on "the best female hockey player that Vermont has produced" Have you watched her play? Very talented-skilled yes, very undisciplined too, all over the ice, on and off the ice when and if she wants. This is not helping build the program. Bothwell has very little control he might have had to use her to help build the program. She will leave unless there is a new coach. Take this to the bank. Trust me on this too, Bothwell does not demonstrate passion for much, certainly not improving and winning! Many wish he would be on the next bus. High character, well, won't go there now. Just do not hold your breath while predicting success in the next 4 years. Well maybe, certainly with a coaching change this will happen.

 

[mainiac]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

,

Mr. Kitty you are completely off base here. While I agree with most responses to this thread, especially the ones referring to accountability and responsibility of coaches and players, the facts regarding Bothwell's lack of any success at UVM is the point. You say you have been watching this program for a while? Really? As Gilligan has brought in quality talent for the past 6 years do you believe that 6 or 7 wins a year (out of 35 games) is acceptable? This is LACK OF SUCCESS and the simple reason to CHANGE COACHES as 3 of the bottom dwelling teams have done in the last 4 years! How long should players, parents, staff, students, the AD (good luck with this one), and maybe even Bothwell himself wait to have success. It does not take 6 years to build a program let alone have some success while taking small steps each year. This is NOT happening at UVM.

FYI on "the best female hockey player that Vermont has produced" Have you watched her play? Very talented-skilled yes, very undisciplined too, all over the ice, on and off the ice when and if she wants. This is not helping build the program. Bothwell has very little control he might have had to use her to help build the program. She will leave unless there is a new coach. Take this to the bank. Trust me on this too, Bothwell does not demonstrate passion for much, certainly not improving and winning! Many wish he would be on the next bus. High character, well, won't go there now. Just do not hold your breath while predicting success in the next 4 years. Well maybe, certainly with a coaching change this will happen.

Usually I stick to the D3 side of things but saw the title and was interested.......Just a question to throw out there if there ever is a change av UVM, but what does anyone out there think about Mark Bolding of Norwich getting a D1 shot at a local school like UVM.......this guy has been very successful very quickly at Norwich and all the players I have talked to love to play for him. I knew him as a player and have watched him since the beginning as a coach and I think this guy could get it done at any level. What are the thoughts on his chances if it ever happens???? Take it as a break in the "Bothwell bash" if you will...........