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The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

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Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

geezer said:
Romans 3
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:

There is no fear of God before their eyes.
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Talk about negativity. ;)

There's nothing wrong with Christianity that doesn't trace back directly to either Augustine's or Paul's self-loathing. In an alternate reality, psychologically healthier Fathers don't garble the message.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Talk about negativity. ;)

There's nothing wrong with Christianity that doesn't trace back directly to either Augustine's or Paul's self-loathing. In an alternate reality, psychologically healthier Fathers don't garble the message.
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Paul is here paraphrasing Psalm 14, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." etc. Goes back quite a ways further than Paul, but accurately depicts (the Lutheran view of) man's hopeless state in unbelief.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

geezer said:
Paul is here paraphrasing Psalm 14, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." etc. Goes back quite a ways further than Paul, but accurately depicts (the Lutheran view of) man's hopeless state in unbelief.
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Interesting. I did not link those two thoughts before. I am familiar with the opening line of Psalm 14, but I've never read the entire psalm. I have understood the passage as, roughly: "FlagDUDE says Jade Helm is cover for a coup d'etat. There are people who respond that this is a delusion. FlagDUDE responds, those who say that are fools." A memetic vaccine to fight off a challenge to the meme.

But I'll go read Psalm 14 now and see if the context changes anything. Thanks.

edit: Well, I'm back. It's short. ;) I'll quote it all for discussion. KJV for me -- I'm an exegetic conservative. :)

14.1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
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14.1: Who is "they"? Is this an extension of the fool's statement and thus his accusation of believers, or perhaps the priesthood? Or is it a response to the fool. Is it "(those who say so) have done..."?

2: An example of the beauty of the Bible. "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men..." is haunting, awe-inspiring, and also just a great dramatic line ("what happens next?!") I recommend to my fellow atheists that they should be open to beauty anywhere. The Bible, particularly in the 1611(ish) incarnation, has astoundingly beautiful passages. Here, a didactic lesson that could have been crabby, shrill, or droning is instead a little mini-drama. BTW, I can't find it explicitly stated but I would guess this is the source of the title of the excellent movie Children of Men.

3-4: The LORD is evidently looking at the Bronx. He's right; it's not pretty.

5: "There were they in great fear..." Is this a continuation of the description of fallen-away man? "They are buffeted by their own rudderless fears"? Or is this a "reaction shot" of the people waiting upon God's judgement?

5: "... for God is in the generation of the righteous." First of all, more beautiful language, this time in meter. It sounds like the former interpretation above fits in: God looks down on this mess of ants all scurrying about in terror because they have no knowledge of Him. Had they, they would have some backbone. (Do ants have backbones? OK, maybe they're mice instead.) But I think I'm missing some echoes in the phrase generation of the righteous. That sounds like a (gorgeous) Biblical term of art that deliberately recalls other passages. Psalm 112.2 reads, in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English (?) version: "His seed shall be mighty in the Earth and he will be blessed in the generation of the righteous ones," which simply sounds like "those who party in Zion with Neo." But I still suspect there's much more shading in that particular idiom.

6: Fascinating. On the face of it this sounds like "You don't kick the crutches from the special needs kid, Dude. Don't be That Guy."

7: Sounds like a boiler plate ending. Carthago delenda est or, more accurately, Wait till next year!

Conclusion: this seems to change the impact of "fool" in 14.1 from silly or wrong-headed to heedless or even cancerous. It seems like an admonition of grave social and psychological effects of lack of belief -- it strips away essential tools for man to be brave and happy.
 
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Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The Christian Network should ask PBS for permission to start a series called Bob The Martyr or Bob The Victim.
 
Kepler said:
I think you can misinterpret my comments about particular (IMO) abuses of religion as attacks on religion itself. But I'm also sharp tongued and I probably bring the misinterpretation on myself.
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You're obnoxious and disliked you know that sir?
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Interesting. I did not link those two thoughts before. I am familiar with the opening line of Psalm 14, but I've never read the entire psalm. I have understood the passage as, roughly: "FlagDUDE says Jade Helm is cover for a coup d'etat. There are people who respond that this is a delusion. FlagDUDE responds, those who say that are fools." A memetic vaccine to fight off a challenge to the meme.

But I'll go read Psalm 14 now and see if the context changes anything. Thanks.

edit: Well, I'm back. It's short. ;) I'll quote it all for discussion. KJV for me -- I'm an exegetic conservative. :)



14.1: Who is "they"? Is this an extension of the fool's statement and thus his accusation of believers, or perhaps the priesthood? Or is it a response to the fool. Is it "(those who say so) have done..."?

2: An example of the beauty of the Bible. "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men..." is haunting, awe-inspiring, and also just a great dramatic line ("what happens next?!") I recommend to my fellow atheists that they should be open to beauty anywhere. The Bible, particularly in the 1611(ish) incarnation, has astoundingly beautiful passages. Here, a didactic lesson that could have been crabby, shrill, or droning is instead a little mini-drama. BTW, I can't find it explicitly stated but I would guess this is the source of the title of the excellent movie Children of Men.

3-4: The LORD is evidently looking at the Bronx. He's right; it's not pretty.

5: "There were they in great fear..." Is this a continuation of the description of fallen-away man? "They are buffeted by their own rudderless fears"? Or is this a "reaction shot" of the people waiting upon God's judgement?

5: "... for God is in the generation of the righteous." First of all, more beautiful language, this time in meter. It sounds like the former interpretation above fits in: God looks down on this mess of ants all scurrying about in terror because they have no knowledge of Him. Had they, they would have some backbone. (Do ants have backbones? OK, maybe they're mice instead.) But I think I'm missing some echoes in the phrase generation of the righteous. That sounds like a (gorgeous) Biblical term of art that deliberately recalls other passages. Psalm 112.2 reads, in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English (?) version: "His seed shall be mighty in the Earth and he will be blessed in the generation of the righteous ones," which simply sounds like "those who party in Zion with Neo." But I still suspect there's much more shading in that particular idiom.

6: Fascinating. On the face of it this sounds like "You don't kick the crutches from the special needs kid, Dude. Don't be That Guy."

7: Sounds like a boiler plate ending. Carthago delenda est or, more accurately, Wait till next year!

Conclusion: this seems to change the impact of "fool" in 14.1 from silly or wrong-headed to heedless or even cancerous. It seems like an admonition of grave social and psychological effects of lack of belief -- it strips away essential tools for man to be brave and happy.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your time here: well done. I would also appreciate any biblical scholar offering answers to your questions. I read the Bible a fair bit (also KJV), but in the moments when it's really uplifting and helpful, it's when a profound personal revelation becomes clear in an emotional way (often concerning God's love for me), that I could never justify by text analysis, or even explain to someone else. For this reason I feel like the interpretation of ANY passage is the one that hits you when you read it today, and different interpretations (for example, of "they" above) could both be "right" and profitable to different people depending on POV.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I absolutely believe that multiple interpretations of a text can be true.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

joecct said:
Thou shall not steal.
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1. Don't steal.

2. You never possess what you have tried to steal, so it is impossible to steal.

3. Steal all you want, but having done so you are no longer "thou" in God's eyes.

I'll be here all week.
 
Kepler said:
1. Don't steal.

2. You never possess what you have tried to steal, so it is impossible to steal.

3. Steal all you want, but having done so you are no longer "thou" in God's eyes.

I'll be here all week.
Click to expand...

Have you tried warming up the crowd for an HRC campaign evemt?
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My dad is threatening to leave his current church because... they're allowing women to serve on their consistory. I guess according to him (and others), women should be limited to Sunday school teachers, nursery coordinators, lesser roles.

At the last couple churches I've attended, women are on the leadership team/consistory.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

ShirtlessBob said:
My dad is threatening to leave his current church because... they're allowing women to serve on their consistory. I guess according to him (and others), women should be limited to Sunday school teachers, nursery coordinators, lesser roles.
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Out of curiosity, what's his reason? Does he think it's a Biblical injunction, or is it tradition, or what?

I'm always interested in hearing real people's views, as opposed to public figures who are pursuing some sort of agenda.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

joecct said:
I'm not Jewish, but isn't that what the Kabala is for?
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The Kabbalah is to keep Hollywood types occupied so they don't hurt themselves or others (c.f. Scientology).

It is not recommended that men masturbate, as the sperm are abandoned souls that become demons. When a woman's insides come into contact with a man's sperm, they are coming into contact with the essence of their energy and are affected by this for several years. The man should not orgasm before the woman, as it injects selfishness into the act of love making. A couple should not engage in sex with the woman positioned above the man, as she is then drawing energies into herself from below, instead of above. The most Light is derived from sex that occurs early Saturday morning.
Click to expand...
 
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