What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
In fact, I have events every night (including multiple events many nights) and lead some very large ones. Few are Christians and most are very ethnically diverse...I often meet nearly a dozen new people a week. OTOH, I don't know how many books you've recommended people read this week on a handful of topics, but I'd say its probably too many. And I need to get out?

Until I see anything either remotely interesting (could actually be not negative) rather than look at this Christian freak or look at this smart guy who 'wised up' not believing in God on a thread...until then, atheism = negativism.
Click to expand...

Forget I said anything. There is obviously nothing you need to learn. The rest of us are still struggling to make some sense of everything, but I envy you your certainties.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Forget I said anything. There is obviously nothing you need to learn. The rest of us are still struggling to make some sense of everything, but I envy you your certainties.
Click to expand...

No sweat. I have plenty to learn. Its just the ongoing criticism and accidental generalizations of Christianity get tiring after a year or three.

Frankly I don't know that God exists. And based on the definition that Christianity's 'based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament' I believe I can walk the Walk anyway. OTOH, doesn't calling yourself an atheist mean by definition that you are certain that God doesn't exist? Seems to me that everyone should be envious of you who has it all figured out.

Tell me where I'm wrong here.
 
5mn_Major said:
No sweat. I have plenty to learn. Its just the ongoing criticism and accidental generalizations of Christianity get tiring after a year or three.

Frankly I don't know that God exists. And based on the definition that Christianity's 'based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament' I believe I can walk the Walk anyway. OTOH, doesn't calling yourself an atheist mean by definition that you are certain that God doesn't exist? Seems to me that everyone should be envious of you who has it all figured out.

Tell me where I'm wrong here.
Click to expand...

Christianity is as much a certainty in the belief in God as atheism is a certainty in a lack of God. It's telling that you believe they should be held to different standards.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

unofan said:
Christianity is as much a certainty in the belief in God as atheism is a certainty in a lack of God. It's telling that you believe they should be held to different standards.
Click to expand...

I read it like he's waffling in his belief and is scared of the idea that he might be shifting towards atheism.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

St. Clown said:
I read it like he's waffling in his belief and is scared of the idea that he might be shifting towards atheism.
Click to expand...

In his defense, I think that's as bad as him making assumptions about atheists' motives and values. And just as he's full of blueberries when he does it, nobody's likely to be able to look inside his head and read his tendencies. Beyond which, one could always just ask him.

The Founders were right. A mutual hands off is the answer. The 16th century sucked; let's not do that again.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
No sweat. I have plenty to learn. Its just the ongoing criticism and accidental generalizations of Christianity get tiring after a year or three.

Frankly I don't know that God exists. And based on the definition that Christianity's 'based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament' I believe I can walk the Walk anyway. OTOH, doesn't calling yourself an atheist mean by definition that you are certain that God doesn't exist? Seems to me that everyone should be envious of you who has it all figured out.

Tell me where I'm wrong here.
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself, calling myself an atheist is saying I am sure enough that God is a human invention that I do not have any personal interior searchings, doubts, or misgivings. That differs from agnosticism in that the agnostic is pretty sure, but is holding the question open for themselves. I'm sure enough that I feel like I can close the question and get on with other things. However, as you may gather, I am fascinated by religion (as with other human creations such as philosophy) and I try really hard not to reduce it to the kind of two-dimensional stereotyping that you seem to be accusing me of doing. I am, however, a flawed and unpleasant being, and I probably don't always succeed. I can assure you that in my head religion and the religious are extremely complicated, varied, and worthy of a lifetime of study.

I do have issues with some believers, particularly those who are intolerant, and I mock them savagely because I think they are both stupid and dangerous. But that's not their religion qua religion, it's their idiocy qua idiocy.
 
St. Clown said:
I read it like he's waffling in his belief and is scared of the idea that he might be shifting towards atheism.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. Personally, based on his previous postings, I read it as his personal version of Christianity seems to be vastly different from mainstream Christianity, at least in so much as he appears to greatly de-emphasize the "God" portion in favor of the "Jesus was a wise man who should be emulated" portion. As another poster put it, he appears to be practicing a Buddhist version of Christianity. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it makes discussing issues tougher because the sides are talking past one another.

If I'm refuting the mainstream God-centric version of Christianity, he will obviously feel my arguments aren't applicable to what he sees as Christianity since that's not what he practices.
 
Last edited:
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Speaking for myself, calling myself an atheist is saying I am sure enough that God is a human invention that I do not have any personal interior searchings, doubts, or misgivings. That differs from agnosticism in that the agnostic is pretty sure, but is holding the question open for themselves. I'm sure enough that I feel like I can close the question and get on with other things. However, as you may gather, I am fascinated by religion (as with other human creations such as philosophy) and I try really hard not to reduce it to the kind of two-dimensional stereotyping that you seem to be accusing me of doing. I am, however, a flawed and unpleasant being, and I probably don't always succeed. I can assure you that in my head religion and the religious are extremely complicated, varied, and worthy of a lifetime of study.

I do have issues with some believers, particularly those who are intolerant, and I mock them savagely because I think they are both stupid and dangerous. But that's not their religion qua religion, it's their idiocy qua idiocy.
Click to expand...
That first paragraph was quite good and makes me think there is hope to discuss things with you. Last couple sentences not so much, given how you savage broad swathes of people around here for disagreeing with you on some policy or issue.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
In fact, I have events every night (including multiple events many nights) and lead some very large ones. Few are Christians and most are very ethnically diverse...I often meet nearly a dozen new people a week. OTOH, I don't know how many books you've recommended people read this week on a handful of topics, but I'd say its probably too many. And I need to get out?

Until I see anything either remotely interesting (could actually be not negative) rather than look at this Christian freak or look at this smart guy who 'wised up' not believing in God on a thread...until then, atheism = negativism.
Click to expand...

What the heck does negativism mean? I think the fact he is pointing you to good resources is a positive...

I am really not trying to be too *****y but you strike me as someone who has done very little academic reading on the subject of philosophy, religion, atheism etc. It may help you navigate these discussions.

5mn_Major said:
No sweat. I have plenty to learn. Its just the ongoing criticism and accidental generalizations of Christianity get tiring after a year or three.

Frankly I don't know that God exists. And based on the definition that Christianity's 'based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament' I believe I can walk the Walk anyway. OTOH, doesn't calling yourself an atheist mean by definition that you are certain that God doesn't exist? Seems to me that everyone should be envious of you who has it all figured out.

Tell me where I'm wrong here.
Click to expand...

You are wrong. Very wrong. Short of going full semantic...meanings of words are usually what is generally accepted. I know literally no people who identify as "atheists" that are certain that God does not exist. You can define it as something most of us are not...but then you are just attacking a strawman. I am not saying they are not out there, but I would strongly disagree with their conclusion as certainty in the absolute sense should not exist.

If you want to go derivative, a-theist could probably be synonymous with non-theist. Or one lacking theistic belief. I identify as an agnostic atheist because I feel that is the best way to describe my position on the very narrow subject of the existence of God. It literally tells you nothing about my beliefs...just my lack there of. Everything else requires you to make an assumption (which tends to be I am a nihilist , immoral, do not give to charity, antitheist, endorse hard solipsism).
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Bob Gray said:
That first paragraph was quite good and makes me think there is hope to discuss things with you. Last couple sentences not so much, given how you savage broad swathes of people around here for disagreeing with you on some policy or issue.
Click to expand...

I think you can misinterpret my comments about particular (IMO) abuses of religion as attacks on religion itself. But I'm also sharp tongued and I probably bring the misinterpretation on myself.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

geezer said:
It's a little eerie when you go all Lutheran on us. Are you OK man?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what "Lutheran" means, here. My only experience of American Lutherans comes from listening to Garrison Keillor. :)
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
I'm not sure what "Lutheran" means, here. My only experience of American Lutherans comes from listening to Garrison Keillor. :)
Click to expand...

I was extending that bit of humility to Luther's teaching that we are completely hopeless on our own, and saved only by faith in Christ.
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
What does this mean? We pray in this petition that our Father in heaven would not look at our sins, or deny our prayer because of them. We are neither worthy of the things for which we pray, nor have we deserved them, but we ask that He would give them all to us by grace, for we daily sin much and surely deserve nothing but punishment. So we too will sincerely forgive and gladly do good to those who sin against us.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

geezer said:
I was extending that bit of humility to Luther's teaching that we are completely hopeless on our own, and saved only by faith in Christ.
Click to expand...

Got it. No, I wasn't going there. My kind of total depravity needs duct tape, burlap sacks and Vegas showgirls.

In fact, I would say my fundamental tenet is to accept that we are entirely worthy, but also entirely responsible. The terror of existentialism is waking up and finding that we are the parents. But just as with being a parent, there is also a tremendous pride and fulfillment in feeling that we are fully alive and cognizant of our responsibilities. We are, in a word, good. We had better be, because if we are not, then there is no good.

Everything is a choice. We are the choices we make. We don't just live with the consequences, we are the consequences -- there is nothing else we could be, because aside from our choices nothing means anything. "Man is the measure of all things."
 
Last edited:
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Got it. No, I wasn't going there. My kind of total depravity needs duct tape, burlap sacks and Vegas showgirls.

In fact, I would say my fundamental tenet is to accept that we are entirely worthy, but also entirely responsible. The terror of existentialism is waking up and finding that we are the parents. But just as with being a parent, there is also a tremendous pride and fulfillment in feeling that we are fully alive and cognizant of our responsibilities. We are, in a word, good. We had better be, because if we are not, then there is no good.

Everything is a choice. We are the choices we make. We don't just live with the consequences, we are the consequences -- there is nothing else we could be, because aside from our choices nothing means anything. "Man is the measure of all things."
Click to expand...
Romans 3
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:

There is no fear of God before their eyes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top