The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Out of curiosity, what's his reason? Does he think it's a Biblical injunction, or is it tradition, or what?

I'm always interested in hearing real people's views, as opposed to public figures who are pursuing some sort of agenda.

Says that in the Bible, 1 Timothy 2:9-15 forbids women to "usurp and hold authority over men." Guess he's a Biblical literalist.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Says that in the Bible, 1 Timothy 2:9-15 forbids women to "usurp and hold authority over men." Guess he's a Biblical literalist.

Timothy always seems to be the problem. Too bad they didn't leave it on the shelf with the Didache.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Timothy always seems to be the problem. Too bad they didn't leave it on the shelf with the Didache.

Then they'd just look back further, not like the whole book doesn't **** on women.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Timothy always seems to be the problem. Too bad they didn't leave it on the shelf with the Didache.

My dad is a good man, but I think this is a really petty issue to leave a church over.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Then they'd just look back further, not like the whole book doesn't **** on women.

I'm more concerned about the NT. The OT is cray-cray: that God loves slavery and rape and mass murder. He's a psycho. The NT is supposed to be Jesus' message that it's time to maybe, oh I dunno, develop an ethical system. And Jesus' words do just that and are inspirational even if you don't believe in the magic show. (Gotta have a gimmick if you want to draw a crowd. I don't blame him.) Supposedly women were prominent not only in Jesus' inner circle but also among the original Christian communities. Then something, somewhere, went wrong and the bait and switch happened with Augustine's self-hatred of his wandering wiener and Paul's suppressed homosexuality or whatever their neuroses were, and, poof, 1600 years of hard core "Christian" misogyny.

With better editorial control, it could have been a much better project. Oh well; at least we're slowly fixing it now.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'm more concerned about the NT. The OT is cray-cray: that God loves slavery and rape and mass murder. He's a psycho. The NT is supposed to be Jesus' message that it's time to maybe, oh I dunno, develop an ethical system. And Jesus' words do just that and are inspirational even if you don't believe in the magic show. (Gotta have a gimmick if you want to draw a crowd. I don't blame him.) Supposedly women were prominent not only in Jesus' inner circle but also among the original Christian communities. Then something, somewhere, went wrong and the bait and switch happened with Augustine's self-hatred of his wandering wiener and Paul's suppressed homosexuality or whatever their neuroses were, and, poof, 1600 years of hard core "Christian" misogyny.

With better editorial control, it could have been a much better project. Oh well; at least we're slowly fixing it now.

Yea but Jesus is literally supposed to take all his authority from his direct connection to, and affirmation of, the OT gods craziness. He's not out to retcon everything just to come back and remind the jews about who's boss. Because biblical jews are just about the worst people ever for sticking to instructions. Seriously, it's like every other page they've strayed to some other god and need to get spanked.

Well last I remember reading, women were important to the early spread through how they raised their children. Not because they were in anyway important to jesus or the religion as a whole. And it was through the upbringing that the cult kept going long enough to be picked up by a larger base decades later. Still see it today with how homeschooling has been consumed by the xtian right to insulate and indoctrinate their children away from those awful public schools.

Like with how however many or whichever women who supposedly discovered an empty tomb. (Since they couldn't even get that straight) It's not including women because they are important but because nobody would have believed anything they said. So obviously because people believed them that must mean it really happened. You'll see a similar reasoning pop up by a lot of the people preaching that the bible is 100% accurate. That because it's so unbelievable, it must be true. Because who could just make it up?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My dad is a good man, but I think this is a really petty issue to leave a church over.

The whole denominational setup in America, where everyone shops for a place that fits their views just so, and religious organizations are huge and have elaborate structures of governance, is problematic in many ways. You look at the New Testament and there it generally refers to churches in cities, not a laundry list of different churches in cities. So people didn't shop around for what fit them right, but were in community with all those believers in their community, including very likely a good number that did not have their understanding on various things. And the leadership method, as shown in the new testament, wasn't that formal. We've added a lot more formality onto titles like elders and deacons and priests than is actually contained in the new testament. Certainly the bible lays out a leadership role for men in certain ways, but that's balanced by also indicating that all believers have gifts and each should practice those gifts for the benefit of all, and that undoubtedly includes things like women teaching, etc. Someone like Beth Moore clearly has a gift for teaching and for her to not practice this gift would take away a blessing for many people.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'm more concerned about the NT. The OT is cray-cray: that God loves slavery and rape and mass murder. He's a psycho. The NT is supposed to be Jesus' message that it's time to maybe, oh I dunno, develop an ethical system. And Jesus' words do just that and are inspirational even if you don't believe in the magic show. (Gotta have a gimmick if you want to draw a crowd. I don't blame him.) Supposedly women were prominent not only in Jesus' inner circle but also among the original Christian communities. Then something, somewhere, went wrong and the bait and switch happened with Augustine's self-hatred of his wandering wiener and Paul's suppressed homosexuality or whatever their neuroses were, and, poof, 1600 years of hard core "Christian" misogyny.

With better editorial control, it could have been a much better project. Oh well; at least we're slowly fixing it now.

That's quite a version of things you subscribe to there.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

You look at the New Testament and there it generally refers to churches in cities, not a laundry list of different churches in cities. So people didn't shop around for what fit them right, but were in community with all those believers in their community, including very likely a good number that did not have their understanding on various things.

That's interesting, though ancient "cities" were what we would call small towns. Other than the big three or four (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, maybe Ephesus) those "cities" had populations smaller than Peoria, IL (not exaggerating -- about 120k). Where there were larger populations there were also schismatics and heresies. So maybe there was quite a bit of shopping going on.

The other thing is: do we have records of what the congregations thought? Today if you don't like your pastor you can tweet about it, but I don't think anybody short of a bishop had much of a microphone in 200 AD.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That's quite a version of things you subscribe to there.

Well, you know. I'm a Big Picture guy.

Every civilization built on brute strength, which is every civilization until steam engines, is deeply misogynistic by today's standards. It probably would have gone wrong anyway, even without the Church Fathers' sexual anxieties. But they didn't help.

 

[joecct]

Timothy always seems to be the problem. Too bad they didn't leave it on the shelf with the Didache.

Then the alma mater would be without a motto

2 Tim 2:15
Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Then the alma mater would be without a motto

You've lost me.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That's interesting, though ancient "cities" were what we would call small towns. Other than the big three or four (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, maybe Ephesus) those "cities" had populations smaller than Peoria, IL (not exaggerating -- about 120k). Where there were larger populations there were also schismatics and heresies. So maybe there was quite a bit of shopping going on.

The other thing is: do we have records of what the congregations thought? Today if you don't like your pastor you can tweet about it, but I don't think anybody short of a bishop had much of a microphone in 200 AD.

We don't have detailed records that I know of, but I don't think they had anything like a pastor to begin with. There are a number of references to elders, but not generally (that I can think of) that one of them was preeminent, like a pastor or something.

Certainly things were still messy back then, during NT times (as things have always been messy when people are involved). But even larger cities, like Rome, there are references (I'm pretty sure not having it in front of me) to the church there. I think it was more of a principle, where people in a town all considered themselves part of the church there, rather than a particular building on a particular corner or anything. There are references to the church in a given place meeting in someone's home, etc.


Compared to any documents put out by any other civilization, the bible, both old and new testament, were extraordinarily forward thinking regarding women, etc.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That's interesting, though ancient "cities" were what we would call small towns. Other than the big three or four (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, maybe Ephesus) those "cities" had populations smaller than Peoria, IL (not exaggerating -- about 120k). Where there were larger populations there were also schismatics and heresies. So maybe there was quite a bit of shopping going on.

The other thing is: do we have records of what the congregations thought? Today if you don't like your pastor you can tweet about it, but I don't think anybody short of a bishop had much of a microphone in 200 AD.

We don't have detailed records that I know of, but I don't think they had anything like a pastor to begin with. There are a number of references to elders, but not generally (that I can think of) that one of them was preeminent, like a pastor or something.

Certainly things were still messy back then, during NT times (as things have always been messy when people are involved). But even larger cities, like Rome, there are references (I'm pretty sure not having it in front of me) to the church there. I think it was more of a principle, where people in a town all considered themselves part of the church there, rather than a particular building on a particular corner or anything. There are references to the church in a given place meeting in someone's home, etc.


Compared to any documents put out by any other civilization, the bible, both old and new testament, were extraordinarily forward thinking regarding women, etc.

Ephesus is a fascinating site. Amazingly modern for its time, yet ancient. Obviously pagan, yet with strong Christian ties to Mary, Paul, etc. Istanbul is also a study in diversity and contrast--religious, cultural, artistic, architectural--though obviously on a different scale.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Compared to any documents put out by any other civilization, the bible, both old and new testament, were extraordinarily forward thinking regarding women, etc.

Uh huh. Given Paul wrote reams of material for the New Testament and is an outright misogynist that's not saying much.

 

[joecct]

You've lost me.

The motto of Thomas S. Clarkson Memorial College of Technology (later changed, for some ungodly reason, to Clarkson University).

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Says that in the Bible, 1 Timothy 2:9-15 forbids women to "usurp and hold authority over men." Guess he's a Biblical literalist.

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

It's pretty cut and dried right there the role of women in the Church as directed by God. What God says, goes; nothing added to it and nothing taken out of it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The motto of Thomas S. Clarkson Memorial College of Technology (later changed, for some ungodly reason, to Clarkson University).

From Wiki:

Thomas S. Clarkson was born in 1837 and attended the St. Lawrence Academy and then received private tutoring.

Is SLA a former identity of SLU?

 

[unofan]

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

It's pretty cut and dried right there the role of women in the Church as directed by God. What God says, goes; nothing added to it and nothing taken out of it.

Gee, I can't imagine why my wife left the church almost as soon as she could think for herself with commands like that...

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Compared to any documents put out by any other civilization, the bible, both old and new testament, were extraordinarily forward thinking regarding women, etc.

Opinions vary, but my instinct is this statement equals "YAY TEAM!," and nothing more.

I haven't checked it out yet but this could be a promising source of actual information rather than Sunday school banalities.