The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

BTW the Duggar mess is super amusing and horrifying at the same time. While also being topical to this kind of discussion.

All sin is equal in God's eyes, so none of us can sit hear and snark at him when all of us sin everyday without snarking at ourselves. Some sins are private, some sins are public, but they are all bad. The key is repentance. Repentance means trying your level best not to fall into the same type of sin again. I'd say Josh has not come to grips with that yet. Hopefully he does.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

All sin is equal in God's eyes.

Yeah, no. There's no way a just god views the telling of a little white lie the same as murder. Apparently we're no longer doing the whole venial vs. mortal sin thing?

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Yeah, no. There's no way a just god views the telling of a little white lie the same as murder. Apparently we're no longer doing the whole venial vs. mortal sin thing?

All sin is equal in God's eyes, so none of us can sit hear and snark at him when all of us sin everyday without snarking at ourselves. Some sins are private, some sins are public, but they are all bad. The key is repentance. Repentance means trying your level best not to fall into the same type of sin again. I'd say Josh has not come to grips with that yet. Hopefully he does.

From the Catholic point of view there are two types of sins - Mortal (Felony) and venial (misdemeanor). All sins can be expunged via the confessional and receive absolution from the priest. In terms of seriousness, an unconfessed/unabsolved mortal sin at death leads you to Hell with no stopping points. Venial sins need to be expunged in Purgatory.

Even if you have been forgiven, the prospect of immediate ascension into Heaven is not guaranteed. If you led a sinful, vain life you will most likely spend time in Purgatory.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

From the Catholic point of view there are two types of sins - Mortal (Felony) and venial (misdemeanor). All sins can be expunged via the confessional and receive absolution from the priest. In terms of seriousness, an unconfessed/unabsolved mortal sin at death leads you to Hell with no stopping points. Venial sins need to be expunged in Purgatory.

Even if you have been forgiven, the prospect of immediate ascension into Heaven is not guaranteed. If you led a sinful, vain life you will most likely spend time in Purgatory.

CE is so awesome. But I'm confused by something. The sinner is in Purgatory because he has to "work off" his insufficient contrition for his sins. So how are prayers for him effective? Seems like a guy with a lot of friends (or a lot of money for an endowment for prayers said in his name) is getting off light.

 

[LynahFan]

CE is so awesome. But I'm confused by something. The sinner is in Purgatory because he has to "work off" his insufficient contrition for his sins. So how are prayers for him effective? Seems like a guy with a lot of friends (or a lot of money for an endowment for prayers said in his name) is getting off light.

If that bothers you, don't Google "indulgences." That'll make your head spin.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

If that bothers you, don't Google "indulgences." That'll make your head spin.

Yeah but the Church (mostly) disavowed indulgences. Plus, indulgences actually have a built-in logic: martyrs' sacrifices build up a big surplus of grace. You can write a check against the balance to pay down your sin debt. You can even proactively pay for sins you haven't committed yet -- God's credit line.

That makes sense.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Yeah but the Church (mostly) disavowed indulgences. Plus, indulgences actually have a built-in logic: martyrs' sacrifices build up a big surplus of grace. You can write a check against the balance to pay down your sin debt. You can even proactively pay for sins you haven't committed yet -- God's credit line.

That makes sense.

The selling of indulgences (Heavenly Bingo) is anathema. Indulgences earned by prayer are still legal, which is why we pray for the dead.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Yeah, no. There's no way a just god views the telling of a little white lie the same as murder. Apparently we're no longer doing the whole venial vs. mortal sin thing?

The Bible makes no distinction classifying sins. James Chapter 2 "10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

From the Catholic point of view there are two types of sins - Mortal (Felony) and venial (misdemeanor). All sins can be expunged via the confessional and receive absolution from the priest. In terms of seriousness, an unconfessed/unabsolved mortal sin at death leads you to Hell with no stopping points. Venial sins need to be expunged in Purgatory.

Even if you have been forgiven, the prospect of immediate ascension into Heaven is not guaranteed. If you led a sinful, vain life you will most likely spend time in Purgatory.

The Purgatory doctrine is one big reason I switched from Catholic to the WELS (along with Mary worship and earning Heaven through good works). I came to the conclusion that if I was going to be a Christian, I was going to follow what the Bible says and not some doctrine a human came up inferred from a couple Bible verses or believe because it's tradition.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The Bible makes no distinction classifying sins. James Chapter 2 "10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Yeah, not changing my mind that Biblical literalists are nuts. Any god who would treat petty theft the same as rape or murder is unjust, unloving, and unworthy of worship.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I came to the conclusion that if I was going to be a Christian, I was going to follow what the Bible says and not some doctrine a human came up inferred from a couple Bible verses or believe because it's tradition.

Based upon what I've read here, I think you are a very good person, Timothy, despite being a Badger fan (which, it appears, is as bad as being a serial killer). But how in Parise's name do you consider words that are, at best, double or triple hearsay, uttered thousands of years ago in languages very few people even understand and translated numerous times, most recently by a politically motivated King whose translators were all members of the same, State-run church? With all the studies (and games) out there showing the unreliability of hearsay information (to the point our rules of evidence do not even allow it to be used in a court of law whose primary purpose is to discern the truth), how are you so easily convinced of the literal accuracy of the bible version you favor?

Again, I am completely ready to accept that you are a better, more ethical and upright man than I, but when you back up and look at it, aren't you waging your salvation on knowledge that is no more credible than many pagan myths? I'm not talking about Christian philosophy here, just so-called Bible literalism.

 

[sweet canadian mullet]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

It's pretty cut and dried right there the role of women in the Church as directed by God. What God says, goes; nothing added to it and nothing taken out of it.

oh, **** that

side note: i'm not unofan's wife, but i think i'd get along with her

 

[XYZ]

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

It's pretty cut and dried right there the role of women in the Church as directed by God. What God says, goes; nothing added to it and nothing taken out of it.

And if I tell god, and anyone else who subscribes to such tripe with a straight and solemn face, to take that steaming pantload and stuff it up their brownslides, what exactly is he or anyone else going to do about it? I've seen more rational statements from cult members. Jesus *** christ, ironically.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Based upon what I've read here, I think you are a very good person, Timothy, despite being a Badger fan (which, it appears, is as bad as being a serial killer). But how in Parise's name do you consider words that are, at best, double or triple hearsay, uttered thousands of years ago in languages very few people even understand and translated numerous times, most recently by a politically motivated King whose translators were all members of the same, State-run church? With all the studies (and games) out there showing the unreliability of hearsay information (to the point our rules of evidence do not even allow it to be used in a court of law whose primary purpose is to discern the truth), how are you so easily convinced of the literal accuracy of the bible version you favor?

Again, I am completely ready to accept that you are a better, more ethical and upright man than I, but when you back up and look at it, aren't you waging your salvation on knowledge that is no more credible than many pagan myths? I'm not talking about Christian philosophy here, just so-called Bible literalism.

burd, you shouldn't be so hard on yourself and so nice to me, I am a sinner and am horribly flawed, maybe worse than you, though you are a sue fan. I totally get where you are coming from on the literal side and obviously many people have a hard time with this concept. First off, what is in the Bible is God inspired and recorded by man (I can get more into this at lunch, I really need to get to work now, but a few quick thoughts...) Our Pastors are all trained in Greek and Latin and I think Hebrew, so they can read the original texts. There is no watering down of the Word over 1000's of years, it's just like it was published yesterday. Often times translating the Greek to English does not do the Greek meaning justice, so our Pastors try and give us a better explanation of what the Greek was getting at. Just last night Pastor Schuppman was doing that with the word "submit" as he ironically talked about the relationship between a husband and wife. It's the Word of God, you have to take it at face value, it's what He wants us to know and try and understand. An imperfect sinful man has no ability to add to what a perfect God has written. Thanks again for challenging my Faith, it makes me stronger, and I'm getting a chance to toss some seeds on the ground.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And if I tell god, and anyone else who subscribes to such tripe with a straight and solemn face, to take that steaming pantload and stuff it up their brownslides, what exactly is he or anyone else going to do about it? I've seen more rational statements from cult members. Jesus *** christ, ironically.

oh, **** that

side note: i'm not unofan's wife, but i think i'd get along with her

We had a great sermon last night on this very subject, I wish I could post it here. It would provide some insight. I'll try and at least post the passages, they expand on the controversial word "submit". It's not as hardcore a putdown of women as its being thought as.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I came to the conclusion that if I was going to be a Christian, I was going to follow what the Bible says and not some doctrine a human came up

I have some bad news for you.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I have some bad news for you.

How do you know the person didn't take dictation from God, just like Joseph Smith?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Thanks again for challenging my Faith, it makes me stronger, and I'm getting a chance to toss some seeds on the ground.

I thought self gratification was a sin.


Trying to create converts on this message board would be as fruitful as whaling in the middle of Lake Superior. Sure, it's a big body of water, but it's not exactly where you're going to find the right creatures.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Trying to create converts on this message board would be as fruitful as whaling in the middle of Lake Superior. Sure, it's a big body of water, but it's not exactly where you're going to find the right creatures.

Au contraire.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Au contraire.

Au contraire your derierre.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

We had a great sermon last night on this very subject, I wish I could post it here. It would provide some insight. I'll try and at least post the passages, they expand on the controversial word "submit". It's not as hardcore a putdown of women as its being thought as.

One of the most misunderstood portions of the bible, and taken out of context. And misused by certain misguided Christians.