The new Super League is going down the tubes.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Maybe, we'll see. Not much we can do about the Big 10 - that's all way above our heads, and frankly, has nothing at all to do with hockey. It's an academic and football alliance, hockey just gets dragged along (CC and DU are lucky that the Pac is not, and never will be, a hockey conference... they could never compete with CU if they had more than a club team.)

But taking away the Big 10 schools, there are still going to be five hockey conferences. Today we have Atlantic, HE, ECAC, WCHA, and CCHA. Okay, in a few years we'll have all of those, minus the CCHA, plus the NCHC. There should be just as much room for growth.

The only difference will be the hierarchy, that's what you despise. The NCHC will take a team from another conference (probably the WCHA) as they see fit. And they'll be back-filled with growth. St. Cloud leaves to NCHC. WCHA adds Moorhead.

I think our only disagreement is whether that tiered hierarchy of conferences is "healthy" or not. But growth shouldn't be stymied, it'll just be different.

By my count, the WCHA has 8 teams today. They can take Bowling green and UAH and they'll be at 10. Which still leaves room to add two schools to D1 hockey to get to today's 12, before the NCHC even considers any more expansion (which it probably will, especially if Notre Dame comes on to make it 9).

You just don't like a hierarchy of conferences, I don't think.

Yay, lets just add Air Force too & why not Canisius...lets see how big we can make the WCHA footprint. That will be great for hockey. Why don't you tell us what other programs the NCHC plans on ditching in 15 years when they are tired of them so we know where the WCHA will expand next.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

You just don't like a hierarchy of conferences, I don't think.

If a conference is more than 6 schools, I like a mix of haves/havenots. It's a good balance. I like an heirarchy WITHIN a conference, but not an heirarchy OF conferences (although that will always be the case, given budgets, academics [see: Ivy League], etc).

Example: it's a general given that HE and WCHA were the top two conferences overall, followed by CCHA, then AHA/ECAC.

However, all conferences had a decent mix of haves/have nots. With the BTHC and NCHC, you have a bunch of haves (minus PSU, but hey, they are a startup). I just don't see it promoting growth when all the cool kids have their area, and the misfits (sorry MTU, but it's an appropriate term in this case) are stuck in the corner.

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Yay, lets just add Air Force too & why not Canisius...lets see how big we can make the WCHA footprint. That will be great for hockey. Why don't you tell us what other programs the NCHC plans on ditching in 15 years when they are tired of them so we know where the WCHA will expand next.

Air Force fills their arena, every game. Maybe the WCHA should pick them up and dump one of its Arctic schools that can't draw fans?

Again, when you live 800 miles from anything, the "expanding the footprint" complaint just doesn't resonate. CC has 2,100 students, and what do you think their athletic department's travel budget looks like?

Our state university is in the PACIFIC-12 conference... most people I knew growing up had never seen water they couldn't walk across.

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

If a conference is more than 6 schools, I like a mix of haves/havenots. It's a good balance. I like an heirarchy WITHIN a conference, but not an heirarchy OF conferences (although that will always be the case, given budgets, academics [see: Ivy League], etc).

I know that's what you like. But that's not your choice (in fact, it's nobody's choice but the individual schools'...this isn't the first time the NCAA has been criticized for not managing conference alignments to ensure somebody is looking out for the greater good). But schools know that. If they're not looking out for themselves, well, that's a problem. But you can't expect equity, or even fairness. That's just not America. I'm a pragmatist. And yes, I am happy when I'm on the winning end of that formula, and I complain when I'm not. But in the end, I accept it, and I try to make lemonade.

I just hope at some point the remainder-WCHA schools get past this phase, reach the acceptance phase, and start to make lemonade too. At this point, THAT'S the best thing that could happen for college hockey. The rest of it is done.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

First off, AF will never leave their conference unless Army goes, too.

And hard to make lemonade when you're missing an ingredient or two (programs that will fold, if not in the immediate future, soon enough).

 

[state of hockey]

First off, AF will never leave their conference unless Army goes, too.

And hard to make lemonade when you're missing an ingredient or two (programs that will fold, if not in the immediate future, soon enough).

Don't forget about Navy as well. If they ever crap or get off the pot, that is.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Air Force fills their arena, every game. Maybe the WCHA should pick them up and dump one of its Arctic schools that can't draw fans?

Don't be stupid. I'm sure that's advice that might have been better received if someone had said it to you before you got your erection today and spammed your nonsense all over the board.

Pperhaps yyou shshould just bbutzout before you get slapped around too much.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Congratulations guys. This the most retarded argument I've ever read on these boards. And I've read my fair share of Sioux/Gopher/Badger, political, and anything involving SCSU threads...

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

First off, AF will never leave their conference unless Army goes, too.

And hard to make lemonade when you're missing an ingredient or two (programs that will fold, if not in the immediate future, soon enough).

I was joking about Air Force. Although, you hear that about the service academies all the time (in all sports), and I'm not sure it plays out in reality. Air Force football seems quite content where it is (because Army/Navy are only two games a year, and they need something regional to fill the stands the rest of the time). Air Force hockey could do very well in a different conference, and still have plenty of time to schedule Army. But yeah, I was still joking.

Lemonade would be saving them (bailout!) or planning for their demise (orderly default!) and replacement.

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Don't be stupid. I'm sure that's advice that might have been better received if someone had said it to you before you got your erection today and spammed your nonsense all over the board.

Pperhaps yyou shshould just bbutzout before you get slapped around too much.

Another mature reply. But what do we expect from Palin-land?

(By Arctic, I actually was thinking the U.P. in Michigan... I totally forget you guys even exist up there. Not that that's hard.)

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Another mature reply. But what do we expect from Palin-land?

Not familiar with the old newbie guide are you?

You've done nothing here today but pick up the slack for DG in terms of shilling for your precious new conference. You have zero say about the WCHA. Your faux concern about it and it's fans is entirely transparent and you've brought nothing to party that hasn't already been discussed over and over in a number of threads over the last couple of months. Perhaps you should read them.

Every school that bolted from the WCHA will be losing between $200,000 and $600,000 in revenue and you nor anyone else propping up the notion that the BHHC is a good idea has (or likely can) point to anywhere that revenue will be recovered in their grand new conference.

(By Arctic, I actually was thinking the U.P. in Michigan... I totally forget you guys even exist up there. Not that that's hard.)

Yes. Your regional ignorance and provincial mindset is nothing new here.

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

You've done nothing here today but pick up the slack for DG in terms of shilling for your precious new conference. You have zero say about the WCHA. Your faux concern about it and it's fans is entirely transparent and you've brought nothing to party that hasn't already been discussed over and over in a number of threads over the last couple of months. Perhaps you should read them.

No idea what's been discussed before. I thought we'd had a couple decent conversations today. It takes two to tango - I wouldn't be posting if nobody was replying.

Every school that bolted from the WCHA will be losing between $200,000 and $600,000 in revenue and you nor anyone else propping up the notion that the BHHC is a good idea has (or likely can) point to anywhere that revenue will be recovered in their grand new conference.

So what? Who said this was about revenue? Wasn't me. Apparently I did add something new to the discussion. I like the idea of a new conference for a better mix of teams, plain and simple.

Yes. Your regional ignorance and provincial mindset is nothing new here.

Did somebody from Alaska just call me provincial? Seriously? Population, what, 700,000? Can you see Russia from your house too?

By the way, the Air Force/Arctic comment was a joke, in reply to a joke. I've always been an Air Force fan. If they could make a move that was good for them, I would support that.


What are you complaining about? Isn't the new WCHA better for you? I would think you'd want to be in the same conference as Fairbanks. I would never ever want to split CC and DU, and would be happy with most any development that brought us together if I were in your shoes.

How does the NCHC hurt your school? Other than your ego. You're apparently going to have more revenue to divvy up, your in-state rival on your conference schedule. What am I missing?

You're right that I don't really care what happens to your school. But I do have the ability to look at the cards on the table, and read what I see. I have said, time and again, I think Tech is better off, I think the Minnesota schools are worse off, and I think you guys are probably just as well off. You can disagree with that, that's fine. But there's no reason to impugn my motives. I don't particularly care what happens, but I don't want to see the WCHA harmed any more than necessary, either. I think every school should look out for their own program first, do what's best for their program (even at others' expense, yes). But I harbor no ill will toward anybody, what's so hard to see about my argument here. It seems straightforward to me. But you're right, I am in this for us first. Shoot me for being honest about that. Even you can admit, I am sure, that if you had the ability to make a better move for your school, and you didn't do it, you'd be a fool. If you think the NCHC is a selfish move, I have no problem with that. But there's no need to make it personal, because in my shoes you'd do the same thing. Go ahead, fleece the wealthy, but don't kid yourself into thinking you'd somehow be a bigger person and not make the same moves if you had the opportunity. Then you'd just be a sucker.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Revenue is a key aspect to your argument about the NCHC and the leftovers. Whether or not you recognized that fact (obviously you didn't) is a key point to your stance about letting smaller schools die off, since they need the bigger schools to survive.

The WCHA, with the largest conference tourney, hands-down, is one example of that revenue. I hosted an easterner who flew out here, just on feedback and reputation of the F5, and he was blown away (GreatLakerMohawk, who now blogs for NBC, so he may know a thing or two about hockey).

He flat out said that one night at the X pretty much outdraws his conference's whole tourney. Link to blog entry, when he was slumming it: http://grossmisconducthockey.com/2010/04/16/minnesota-is-the-state-of-hockey/

The WCHA, B1G Mistake, and NCHC just lost that tourney. That's a huge revenue hit.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Revenue is a key aspect to your argument about the NCHC and the leftovers. Whether or not you recognized that fact (obviously you didn't) is a key point to your stance about letting smaller schools die off, since they need the bigger schools to survive.

The WCHA, with the largest conference tourney, hands-down, is one example of that revenue. I hosted an easterner who flew out here, just on feedback and reputation of the F5, and he was blown away (GreatLakerMohawk, who now blogs for NBC, so he may know a thing or two about hockey).

He flat out said that one night at the X pretty much outdraws his conference's whole tourney. Link to blog entry, when he was slumming it: http://grossmisconducthockey.com/2010/04/16/minnesota-is-the-state-of-hockey/

The WCHA, B1G Mistake, and NCHC just lost that tourney. That's a huge revenue hit.

That tournament being flushed down the toilet is probably the biggest reason for my frustrations...not mention the fact that one of the reasons I settled in Minneapolis/St Paul was the fact that it was basically the center of the WCHA and made road trips to everywhere but Colorado and Alaska quite easy. Now thats all gone. BButzin can keep saying proximity means nothing to him but it meant a ton to me and it sucks that 4 of the shortest road trips for me as tech fan in MSP are now gone.

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

What I am saying is that individual schools might be making this decision in spite of revenue projections, not necessarily because of them. Other schools might have a different calculus - maybe ticket revenues are more important than conference tourney payouts? I won't go into too many details, but I know for a fact that at least one NCHC school, which currently operates its hockey program at a loss, does not expect that to change, but is still happy with the expected outlook.

There's more to it than that. It is a main consideration, of course (there'd be heads rolling if money wasn't considered), but not the only consideration. Nobody expects a financial windfall from the NCHC. But it can't get much worse than the financial situation in the old WCHA, either.

That tournament being flushed down the toilet is probably the biggest reason for my frustrations...not mention the fact that one of the reasons I settled in Minneapolis/St Paul was the fact that it was basically the center of the WCHA and made road trips to everywhere but Colorado and Alaska quite easy. Now thats all gone. BButzin can keep saying proximity means nothing to him but it meant a ton to me and it sucks that 4 of the shortest road trips for me as tech fan in MSP are now gone.

I don't doubt that sucks for you. Not at all, I'd be mad too. Doesn't affect us, only places we can drive are DU, CC, and Air Force. Even UNO is an 8 hour drive.

Realize, guys, that not every fan or program is the same, or in the same place.

But let's be reasonable - if you were an athletic director, these are not your concerns. Your concerns are solely the opportunities afforded to your program, the options available to your program.

Am I the only one here who operates in the business world? I am sorry, I do not have the luxury of looking out for everyone's well being. That is not my job. Nor is it possible.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I'm surprised with the insults being tossed bbutzin's way. I haven't agreed with pretty much anything he's said, but unlike another unnamed poster I don't think he's been dishonest. It's ok to disagree without the vitriol.

fwiw

 

[state of hockey]

I'm surprised with the insults being tossed bbutzin's way. I haven't agreed with pretty much anything he's said, but unlike another unnamed poster I don't think he's been dishonest. It's ok to disagree without the vitriol.

fwiw

Agreed.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

What I am saying is that individual schools might be making this decision in spite of revenue projections, not necessarily because of them. Other schools might have a different calculus - maybe ticket revenues are more important than conference tourney payouts? I won't go into too many details, but I know for a fact that at least one NCHC school, which currently operates its hockey program at a loss, does not expect that to change, but is still happy with the expected outlook.

There's more to it than that. It is a main consideration, of course (there'd be heads rolling if money wasn't considered), but not the only consideration. Nobody expects a financial windfall from the NCHC. But it can't get much worse than the financial situation in the old WCHA, either.



I don't doubt that sucks for you. Not at all, I'd be mad too. Doesn't affect us, only places we can drive are DU, CC, and Air Force. Even UNO is an 8 hour drive.

Realize, guys, that not every fan or program is the same, or in the same place.

But let's be reasonable - if you were an athletic director, these are not your concerns. Your concerns are solely the opportunities afforded to your program, the options available to your program.

Am I the only one here who operates in the business world? I am sorry, I do not have the luxury of looking out for everyone's well being. That is not my job. Nor is it possible.

Tell me how in the business world this definitely better for DU? Tell me how the Hockey line on the athletic department's budget just improved?

 

[bunt_q]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I'm surprised with the insults being tossed bbutzin's way. I haven't agreed with pretty much anything he's said, but unlike another unnamed poster I don't think he's been dishonest. It's ok to disagree without the vitriol.

fwiw

Thank you. I am trying to be reasonable.

There are winners and losers, I understand that. That's true of most any big decision.

You guys also have to understand, from where I sit, this is a big win. I haven't even mentioned this yet, but my hometown just picked up a major hockey conference headquarters. We're an island of hockey out here in Colorado. That's a big deal, adding to our hockey credentials. Putting it down the road from USA Hockey headquarters. It's good for us. In fairness, you guys all have to agree that in our shoes, when Dean Blais (or whoever it was) called with this wild idea for a new conference, you'd at least hear him out, and in the end probably jump on board.

I wonder... every time an auto manufacturing plant moves from Michigan to someplace in the South, is there this kind of blowback on the internet? Or is this unique to sports?

EDIT: I don't know about DU for sure. But the details of "how this is good" is too much for on here. And nothing is ever "definitely" better in the real world. I hate to answer a question with a question, but do you really think an athletic department would make a decision if it didn't believe it was in their best interests? Their assessment could be wrong, granted, but there most certainly was an assessment done. Sports economics is not my area of expertise, but those people do exist.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I'm surprised with the insults being tossed bbutzin's way. I haven't agreed with pretty much anything he's said, but unlike another unnamed poster I don't think he's been dishonest. It's ok to disagree without the vitriol.

fwiw

What gets me about butzin is that he has asked for answers, and has flat out discounted, ignored, or has not understood them (for the most part). And there's the bonus of him implying that CC is riding on the bigger schools' coattails in this new conference, which under his stance would mean they should fold (which he also implies is an incorrect move), while other schools in the same situation SHOULD fold, because they can't support themselves.

Many of us were patient at first, providing examples, explanations, etc, and either he refused to acknowledge them, or could not provide a counter argument that had any solid points.

I will admit, he SEEMS to be coming around, but there's still a lot of ground to make up, IMO.