The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

You forget that the people you are debating don't believe that you make more via hardwork. Only luck and rich parents determine income. Want to make your story more unrealistic? Have the restaurant owned by immigrants who came here with nothing...that could never happen.

You do realise that there are businesses that take the tips of servers and then distributes them evenly amongst all servers, yes? Turning Stone Casino does it for most table game dealers, with the exception of poker: those dealers receive exactly the tips they earn.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

You do realise that there are businesses that take the tips of servers and then distributes them evenly amongst all servers, yes? Turning Stone Casino does it for most table game dealers, with the exception of poker: those dealers receive exactly the tips they earn.

Classic set up at a beach resort. Great looking blond in tank top is the eye candy behind the bar, while experienced old geezer is the one actually getting people their drinks in a timely fashion.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

You forget that the people you are debating don't believe that you make more via hardwork. Only luck and rich parents determine income. Want to make your story more unrealistic? Have the restaurant owned by immigrants who came here with nothing...that could never happen.

 

[pirate]

You do realise that there are businesses that take the tips of servers and then distributes them evenly amongst all servers, yes? Turning Stone Casino does it for most table game dealers, with the exception of poker: those dealers receive exactly the tips they earn.

I'm aware of plenty of comp structures...I wasn't commenting on whether they exist

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

This would be the very heart of His Transcriptlessness' campaign. Like, (paraphrasing) "we don't want to put AK47's in the hands of criminals."

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

I'm aware of plenty of comp structures...I wasn't commenting on whether they exist

There was a time when the hat check concessions (along with just about everything else) at Chicago night spots was run by the mob. The tips all went to guys named Joey Bagodonuts. The girls got squat.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Tune in tomorrow when righties try to explain why its okay to oppose the stimulus but then turn around and ask for stimulus money for your district! Should be fun.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

There was a time when the hat check concessions (along with just about everything else) at Chicago night spots was run by the mob. The tips all went to guys named Joey Bagodonuts. The girls got squat.

I don't know if you have seen the new FOX series "Hotel Hell", but that's one of the things the Juniper Hill Inn owners did.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

And what are the poor paying? Well, 48% of them are paying zero. And yet, they're still getting stuff.

It doesn't matter if that was true or what your opinion is on the topic. You have yet to prove that the government is stealing from anyone:

- the rich are getting services for their taxes...no stealing
- the rich are paying more and getting more services than the poor...no stealing
- the rich have an agreement with the government and are willingly paying taxes...no stealing

Its time for you to bring the bacon here.

You forget that the people you are debating don't believe that you make more via hardwork.

Why do you think that?

If you're referring to me...couldn't be my position that the rich are extremely valuable and although they need to pay taxes, deserve to earn the income for the work they do whether it be six or seven figures (which I've stated countless times). And it couldn't be my own resume.

Evidence? Or is this where you stop posting.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

It doesn't matter if that was true or what your opinion is on the topic. You have yet to prove that the government is stealing from anyone:

- the rich are getting services for their taxes...no stealing
- the rich are paying more and getting more services than the poor...no stealing
- the rich have an agreement with the government and are willingly paying taxes...no stealing

Its time for you to bring the bacon here.

Actually, I'm going to challenge YOU to bring the bacon: How are the rich getting more services than the poor? Break it down from an estimated monetary standpoint, and I won't even make you fish for numbers; I'll give you the 2012 United States Budget broken down by cabinet department. I'll recommend you use enacted numbers, both discretionary AND mandatory. If math is too hard for you, find a Techie. You've been making this claim the last few pages, now put your money where your mouth is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_outlays_by_agency

 

[mookie1995]

- the rich are paying more and getting more services than the poor....

ahbullchit!!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Actually, I'm going to challenge YOU to bring the bacon: How are the rich getting more services than the poor? Break it down from an estimated monetary standpoint, and I won't even make you fish for numbers; I'll give you the 2012 United States Budget broken down by cabinet department. I'll recommend you use enacted numbers, both discretionary AND mandatory. If math is too hard for you, find a Techie. You've been making this claim the last few pages, now put your money where your mouth is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_outlays_by_agency

What is this? I know you are but what am I? I asked you to bring the bacon on your postion that the government is guilty of 'thievery' and 'stealing' and you deflect it by telling me to prove something else?

And you don't see anything wrong with thievery?

Again, where is government thievery?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

What is this? I know you are but what am I? I asked you to bring the bacon on your postion that the government is guilty of 'thievery' and 'stealing' and you deflect it by telling me to prove something else?



Again, where is government thievery?

Medicaid, where the rich do not qualify. Also, Medicare and Social Security (which, if you knew anything about the two programs, you are not eligible for the second without the first, and it is a felony for you to pay out of pocket for something that is covered by Medicare, Medigap, or any other related program if you are under the plan), not to mention any side programs within Social Security (death benefit) where the rich are not eligible. Those alone cover one-half the entire United States budget for 2012. Also, if you want to include taxes, how about the estate tax? How about the death tax? The poor get out of those because of the $1,000,000 deductible.

You've now heard me put up. Are you going to put up, or shut up?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Medicaid, where the rich do not qualify. Also, Medicare and Social Security (which, if you knew anything about the two programs, you are not eligible for the second without the first, and it is a felony for you to pay out of pocket for something that is covered by Medicare, Medigap, or any other related program if you are under the plan), not to mention any side programs within Social Security (death benefit) where the rich are not eligible. Those alone cover one-half the entire United States budget for 2012. Also, if you want to include taxes, how about the estate tax? How about the death tax? The poor get out of those because of the $1,000,000 deductible.

You've now heard me put up. Are you going to put up, or shut up?

This argument was made before. Its the same situation as for me and Iraq. I disagree with the Iraq war now, I disagreed with it when it was in full swing and I disagreed with it before it began. I got nothing out of it...and it made the country worse off.

The government did not steal from me on Iraq. Government services are a basket. The democratic process is in place to determine what is included in that basket. At which point, I have the option of severing my agreement with the government and giving up my citizenship...or participating based on our agreement. That is all.

The government is not stealing anything from anyone in the way it has been intended here, in the article or elsewhere on the thread.

If you want more on my positions on govt services for the rich, you can go back and read my posts. If need be I can list the numbers where've already made all the arguments (which are plenty) that I am going to on the topic.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

It doesn't matter if that was true or what your opinion is on the topic. You have yet to prove that the government is stealing from anyone:

That's an easy one. Look no further than the annual budget deficit. Last number I saw was $1.2 trillion annually. The government spent $1.2 trillion it didn't have. That is stealing from our children and their children, basically every future generation, to satiate current wants. It may not technically be stealing according to the laws on the books, but it is in every other sense.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

ahbullchit!!

It's not an indefensible position, so long as you include abstractions. National defense arguably provides a bigger benefit to the wealthy than the poor, since they have more to lose. Yes, the salaries nominally go to poor/middle class Americans making up the rank and file soldiers, but the overall benefit goes more to the wealthy than the poor. A garbageman is going to be a garbageman whether the Russians invade us ala Red Dawn (sorry, North Koreans now, according to the remake), but the wealthy business man could lose his entire livelihood when the commies nationalize everything.



Many other government services can be viewed the same way. About the only ones that can't are medicaid, food stamps, and the like.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

It may not technically be stealing according to the laws on the books, but it is in every other sense.

Stealing has been against the law for centuries. If its on the books, its stealing. If its not, its purely opinion. The above statement is your opinion...which I don't share.

I could claim that you're stealing from me because of all this money the governement is pumping into your border down there...which is just as false as your position that the rich is stealing from the poor. Nobody is stealing from anyone on any of this.

It's not an indefensible position, so long as you include abstractions. National defense arguably provides a bigger benefit to the wealthy than the poor, since they have more to lose. Yes, the salaries nominally go to poor/middle class Americans making up the rank and file soldiers, but the overall benefit goes more to the wealthy than the poor. A garbageman is going to be a garbageman whether the Russians invade us ala Red Dawn (sorry, North Koreans now, according to the remake), but the wealthy business man could lose his entire livelihood when the commies nationalize everything.

Many other government services can be viewed the same way. About the only ones that can't are medicaid, food stamps, and the like.

The general point I made posts ago. The only response has been 'you're wrong!' or changing the subject.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

It's not an indefensible position, so long as you include abstractions. National defense arguably provides a bigger benefit to the wealthy than the poor, since they have more to lose. Yes, the salaries nominally go to poor/middle class Americans making up the rank and file soldiers, but the overall benefit goes more to the wealthy than the poor. A garbageman is going to be a garbageman whether the Russians invade us ala Red Dawn (sorry, North Koreans now, according to the remake), but the wealthy business man could lose his entire livelihood when the commies nationalize everything.

Many other government services can be viewed the same way. About the only ones that can't are medicaid, food stamps, and the like.

I'm not buying it - only about 23% of the defense budget goes to procurement and construction (Wiki). If the firms that provide those services are generating 10% profit (probably generous), then 2.3% of the military budget ends up in the pockets of the business owners. The other 97.7% goes to average Joes.

I'm not buying the Red Dawn scenario, either - sure, a rich man might lose more in terms of raw dollars, but the garbage man would suffer much, much more during the conflict and until the new government is up and running. The poor have much less margin, so any perturbation to their income drastically impacts their standard of living - the rich, not so much.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Stealing has been against the law for centuries. If its on the books, its stealing. If its not, its purely opinion. The above statement is your opinion...which I don't share.

I could claim that you're stealing from me because of all this money the governement is pumping into your border down there...which is just as false as your position that the rich is stealing from the poor. Nobody is stealing from anyone on any of this.

So you have no problem with the current generation running up trillions and trillions of debt to be paid for by future generations? Even most tax and spend liberals at least make a public showing of being squeamish on this, but you apparently just don't care about future generations, given your response. Your rambling about rich stealing from poor or whatever must be directed at someone else, as I haven't said anything about that.

And I see you are resorting to a hypertechnical definition of stealing.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

So you disagree with my premise that the rich and the poor consume different levels of government services?

Rich drive further, own more cars, boats, fly more often, go overseas more. The extent of infrastructure (from roads to internet), law enforcement, bureaus such as the FAA, environmental funding, and frankly much of the extent of the military and foriegn missions to make the 'world a safer place' for Americans abroad all greatly cost and complicate government services.

Tell you what. I plan out all of the govt services touching a poor person living in an apartment in the city...including possibly even biking to a fast food job. You plan out all the govt services touching someone driving an hour to their CFO job daily, taking the boat to seaside restaurants, taking a personal jet to Chicago for the weekend, with 4 residences that they visit on a regular basis, and that flies to Borneo or African safaris for annual vacations. Remember each of the activities undertaken by the rich requires not just a host of government services to complete...but the production and sale of products/services necessary for these activities require their own host of government services. My analysis won't take long...and yours? Its critical that we have the rich doing that...but no way do the poor and the wealthy consume the same govt services.

so where's the analysis?

roads:
rich don't live farther? they live in back bay, beacon hill. or close suburbs like newton and weston and wellsley. plus there are many less of them than poor. why just today i stopped at the country club and on the way home made a side trip to walmart to count the cars in the lot. 25 cars at the club. 225 at walmart. and those poor people drove farther to get to walmart. POOR use more (and i am not even scratching PUBLIC transportation - priceless moment recap... "high speed rail from portland to boston!! $15/rt!"). (I WIN)
fly (FAA):
i only count 12 seats in first class. 100+ in coach. ( I WIN AGAIN) my mom flies up from pittsburgh almost every month. she has become friends with folks from PA and WV she sees every time who fly to boston to enroll in MA unemployment because the benefits here are better here. (ME AGAIN)
cars:
All U.S. households that rent the home (34.7%) and own one or more vehicles -- 72.3%
All U.S. households that own the home (65.3%) and own one or more vehicles -- 93.8%

Households with leased vehicles, household income $100,000 and under -19%
Households with leased vehicles, household income $100,000 and up -13% (I'M NOT SEEING THE RICH RUNNING AWAY WITH THIS. I THINK I WIN!)

state dept (foreign missions):
budget request 16.4b
total us budget request 3,550,0b
(0.0046%)
(I WIN)

boats:
c'mon!!!!

internet:
really? who votes online for american idol? really?
plus everyone is on the innernet. poor = 99% rich = 1$. (I WIN AGAIN!!)