State of D-II Hockey

[NUProf]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

NCAA.com has also added pages for Post Men's and Women's ice hockey. Both teams are listed as Division II Independents. I'll be interested to see how their schedule works out this year. Their men's team was pretty terrible last year against mostly ACHA DII opponents and I'm not sure if their women's team even played. There's no schedule listed on their website.

Also more news out of Saint A's. They don't seem to be going DIII any time soon. Athletic scholarships are being reinstated for 2017. Story here.

To me (as an academician, so I admit my bias), Division II makes no sense. For schools to spend financial resources for scholarships that could go to academics in order to pursue championships in a division that no one really cares about (quick, without looking can you tell me who won the DII football or basketball championship last year?) is a waste of institutional resources. Division III makes more sense in that the athletes are required to be students subject to the same financial support rules as every other student. Yes, money is spent on athletics, and some schools spend more than others, but students get support because they are students. If you want to spend money on athletic scholarships, you might as well be in DI.

As far as that goes, I think the lack of integrity in DI major sports shows us how athletics has become the tail wagging the dog at some of our most prominent academic institutions. College athletics started as a way for students at one school to compete with students at another school. Division I has turned that into athletic departments that are independent empires that have more power than the people who run the school. Just look at Baylor and all the other schools where athletic departments have run amok and taken away from the academic reputations of the schools that they were supposed to "represent."

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

NCAA.com has also added pages for Post Men's and Women's ice hockey. Both teams are listed as Division II Independents. I'll be interested to see how their schedule works out this year. Their men's team was pretty terrible last year against mostly ACHA DII opponents and I'm not sure if their women's team even played. There's no schedule listed on their website.

Also more news out of Saint A's. They don't seem to be going DIII any time soon. Athletic scholarships are being reinstated for 2017. Story here.

I don't get how reinstating scholarships doesn't affect Saint Anselm's Division III exploratory phase. If anything wouldn't that prolong their ability to drop down to D-III for a few more years now that they are offering scholarships and thus they would need to be "cleansed" again.

 

[Buckeye22]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

I don't get how reinstating scholarships doesn't affect Saint Anselm's Division III exploratory phase. If anything wouldn't that prolong their ability to drop down to D-III for a few more years now that they are offering scholarships and thus they would need to be "cleansed" again.

That's the thing. The administration keeps saying they're continuing to explore DIII, but this seems like a pretty big win for the people who want to stay DII (which seems like most of the St. A's community). The quote from the women's basketball coach in that article about the school "recommitting" to DII seemed pretty unequivocal. Obviously thats just one coache's opinion and is in no way official, but still. You have to wonder if the uncertainty one way or the other will start to negatively affect recruiting.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

That's the thing. The administration keeps saying they're continuing to explore DIII, but this seems like a pretty big win for the people who want to stay DII (which seems like most of the St. A's community). The quote from the women's basketball coach in that article about the school "recommitting" to DII seemed pretty unequivocal. Obviously thats just one coache's opinion and is in no way official, but still. You have to wonder if the uncertainty one way or the other will start to negatively affect recruiting.

Maybe once the NEWMAC idea failed, which in my personal opinion seemed like a good fit for them, they were left down stream without a paddle.

I'm not sure what other league makes sense for them. The NEWMAC seemed like the most logical fit for geography, academic standards and the fact the NEWMAC is starting football in 2017. Saint Anselm would have made an excellent addition to that league.

The other thing that I'm now intrigued by is how does this effect Saint Anselm's NEHC status. From what I was told, both Saint Mike's and Saint Anselm had to make committed moves to be dropping to D-III in order to stay in the league. Saint Anselm had hit the requirement by their announcement last year but now this would seem to tell a different story. Last I knew, Saint Michael's was still mum on what they were doing which didn't look good for the NEHC prospects.

I believe there is a league meeting coming up soon so maybe more light will be shed on the situation soon.

 

[sbkbghockey]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

To me (as an academician, so I admit my bias), Division II makes no sense. For schools to spend financial resources for scholarships that could go to academics in order to pursue championships in a division that no one really cares about (quick, without looking can you tell me who won the DII football or basketball championship last year?) is a waste of institutional resources. Division III makes more sense in that the athletes are required to be students subject to the same financial support rules as every other student. Yes, money is spent on athletics, and some schools spend more than others, but students get support because they are students. If you want to spend money on athletic scholarships, you might as well be in DI.

As far as that goes, I think the lack of integrity in DI major sports shows us how athletics has become the tail wagging the dog at some of our most prominent academic institutions. College athletics started as a way for students at one school to compete with students at another school. Division I has turned that into athletic departments that are independent empires that have more power than the people who run the school. Just look at Baylor and all the other schools where athletic departments have run amok and taken away from the academic reputations of the schools that they were supposed to "represent."

Very good points NUProf,

I think your second point about the lack of integrity that seems like comes attached to big college athletics (NCAA D1) is why D2 is an option for schools that want to invest some resources in athletics but still want to maintain balance between athletics and academics and still have a focus on the STUDENT-athlete. Many times, although not as much with hockey as some sports, we see NCAA DI as more of an ATHLETE-student philosophy.

 

[Buckeye22]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

Post University women's hockey team has released the schedule for their inaugural season. They will be playing as an independent. Biggest highlight is that they will be participating in the women's edition of the annual Codfish Bowl tournament at UMass-Boston, playing UMB in the first round. UMass-Boston won the NEHC last year, so that will be quite the measuring stick for the new Post squad.

Schedule here.

 

[tiredtender]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

There will be 9 NAIA schools forming a varsity hockey conference in 17-18. Interestingly this will include athletic aid that parallels current NCAA D2 offerings.
Q. Has anybody ever heard of a "blended" league consisting of NCAA and NAIA schools (or NJCAA for that matter)?

 

[sbkbghockey]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

There will be 9 NAIA schools forming a varsity hockey conference in 17-18. Interestingly this will include athletic aid that parallels current NCAA D2 offerings.
Q. Has anybody ever heard of a "blended" league consisting of NCAA and NAIA schools (or NJCAA for that matter)?

It was talked about spitballing around in the NAIA comeback thread http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?115095-NAIA-Hockey-Possible-Comeback

The conclusions we all basically came up with is that the NCAA probably wouldn't allow it since the NAIA and NCAA are separate associations (and somewhat compete against each other since NCAA D2 and NAIA levels are very comparable in most sports). Also the NCAA D2 hockey schools are where they are in limbo because they don't put resources into hockey to play up, like many other D2 schools do, and the NCAA has rules where they can compete at D3, not give schollies, but can't play postseason in NCAA D3.

Probably the best thing would be a rule change by the NCAA to have the D1 championship and a "National Collegiate" championship that blends the NCAA D2 and D3 sports. The NCAA has National Collegiate Championships for other sports, usually smaller sports that have membership across the divisions.

 

[Buckeye22]

There will be 9 NAIA schools forming a varsity hockey conference in 17-18. Interestingly this will include athletic aid that parallels current NCAA D2 offerings.
Q. Has anybody ever heard of a "blended" league consisting of NCAA and NAIA schools (or NJCAA for that matter)?

I believe that back in the day NCAA schools used to compete in the NAIA hockey tournament on an invitational bases, but that was before the NCAA had a DII or DIII National Tournament.

 

[joecct]

It was talked about spitballing around in the NAIA comeback thread http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?115095-NAIA-Hockey-Possible-Comeback

The conclusions we all basically came up with is that the NCAA probably wouldn't allow it since the NAIA and NCAA are separate associations (and somewhat compete against each other since NCAA D2 and NAIA levels are very comparable in most sports). Also the NCAA D2 hockey schools are where they are in limbo because they don't put resources into hockey to play up, like many other D2 schools do, and the NCAA has rules where they can compete at D3, not give schollies, but can't play postseason in NCAA D3.

Probably the best thing would be a rule change by the NCAA to have the D1 championship and a "National Collegiate" championship that blends the NCAA D2 and D3 sports. The NCAA has National Collegiate Championships for other sports, usually smaller sports that have membership across the divisions.

Then would the D2 -> D1 playups (9/10 of WCHA + others ) be forced to play down? The women have a combined D1/D2 NCC.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

Then would the D2 -> D1 playups (9/10 of WCHA + others ) be forced to play down? The women have a combined D1/D2 NCC.

I don't see this being the conclusion of what sbkbhockey said at all. There are D3 schools that play up (as you should know!) and they are not forced to play down just because there is a D3 national championship.

 

[joecct]

I don't see this being the conclusion of what sbkbhockey said at all. There are D3 schools that play up (as you should know!) and they are not forced to play down just because there is a D3 national championship.

Yet, Russell. Yet. I don't trust the FBS schools.

 

[NUProf]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

Yet, Russell. Yet. I don't trust the FBS schools.

Many of them are not happy that "lesser" schools are allowed to compete for "their" titles. Many years ago, they made sure that no one could "play up" in basketball or football, and they have been tightening the restrictions on these schools in other sports ever since then.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

Many of them are not happy that "lesser" schools are allowed to compete for "their" titles. Many years ago, they made sure that no one could "play up" in basketball or football, and they have been tightening the restrictions on these schools in other sports ever since then.

Yep. And there are concerns that the new Big Ten in hockey is trying to slowly push these "lesser" schools out of hockey (i.e., the freshmen age limit proposal). However, I still think joecct made too big of a jump in his paranoid response...

 

[cooperalls]

St.A's has started the process of reclassifying to D 3 and has been accepted to D 3, provided they can find a D 3 league in one year.
Beginning this year , 2016-2017, no athletes, including basketball, football etc. have been offered any non need based athletic scholarship money, which is consistent with the D 3 model.

I'm assuming that this is no longer happening and heard a rumor that this will be St. Mikes and Saint Anselms last year in NEHC?

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

I'm assuming that this is no longer happening and heard a rumor that this will be St. Mikes and Saint Anselms last year in NEHC?

I'm hearing the same.

 

[Buckeye22]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

Post has released most of their men's schedule.

Apparently there are still a couple dates they're hoping to fill. This year they'll be playing a mix of ACHA (DI & DII) and NCAA (DII & DIII) opponents. Based on their results last year, and the recruits the brought in for this season, I think they should do well against the ACHA DII schools, but I think they're gonna get spanked by the NCAA schools, and probably URI (ACHA DI) as well.

 

[Buckeye22]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

According to this article from USCHO, Minot State would need to move its entire athletic department up to Division I if it wanted to play Division I hockey. This would presumably be true for Simon Fraser as well, who are also DII. Apparently DII schools playing prior to 2010 have been grandfathered in. As stated earlier in this thread, I was under the impression that any school could move up if there was no national championship offered in their own division. Is that no longer the case? Also, even if that loophole no longer exists, they would still be able to play up in just hockey as long as they didn't offer the full DI allotment of scholarships (the same loophole being used by RIT/Union) correct? This has implications for SNHU and the other NE10 schools as it would pretty much take jumping to DI completely off the table for them.

 

[joecct]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

No! No! No!!!!

Because D-II hockey does not have a championship, their hockey team can petition to be included with the D-I championship.

It would make life a lot simpler if they turned the D-I championship into a National Collegiate (D-I & D-II) Championship just like the women.

 

[Buckeye22]

Re: State of D-II Hockey

No! No! No!!!!

Because D-II hockey does not have a championship, their hockey team can petition to be included with the D-I championship.

It would make life a lot simpler if they turned the D-I championship into a National Collegiate (D-I & D-II) Championship just like the women.

Ok, ok. That's what I meant. This article is saying Minot State would have to up to Division I for all sports if they wanted to compete for the DI Championship. Apparently petitioning to move up for one sport as you were apparently allowed to in the past is no longer a thing. Or is the source in this article just mistaken?