PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
Do you think they would get a decent crowd there if it was D1 hockey? I can't think of many things worse than playing in a huge arena with no one there.
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State of D-II Hockey
- Thread starter ExileOnDaytonStreet
- Start date
Do you think they would get a decent crowd there if it was D1 hockey? I can't think of many things worse than playing in a huge arena with no one there.
SNHUPenman
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
I think being DI and having something to play for would increase their crowd size. The Verizon is 10k in seating, so I think at best they would only be able to draw only 25% of that. So it would always seem pretty empty...however, UNH hockey is down...they do not sell out anymore. And the Manchester Monarchs are ECHL versus AHL- so I assume their crowds have decreased as well. I strongly think there is a market for hockey in central NH...they'd need to be creative and have special ticket offerings etc...and have a STH drive to start. But I think overtime they could put together a good atmosphere...it may also depend on who comes to town as well...
I went to a game there this year that was SNHU vs Franklin Pierce...it was empty...hardly anyone there...but honestly...what incentive to people have to watch two DII schools that have basically nothing to play for?
I think being DI and having something to play for would increase their crowd size. The Verizon is 10k in seating, so I think at best they would only be able to draw only 25% of that. So it would always seem pretty empty...however, UNH hockey is down...they do not sell out anymore. And the Manchester Monarchs are ECHL versus AHL- so I assume their crowds have decreased as well. I strongly think there is a market for hockey in central NH...they'd need to be creative and have special ticket offerings etc...and have a STH drive to start. But I think overtime they could put together a good atmosphere...it may also depend on who comes to town as well...
I went to a game there this year that was SNHU vs Franklin Pierce...it was empty...hardly anyone there...but honestly...what incentive to people have to watch two DII schools that have basically nothing to play for?
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Interesting discussion concerning future of D2 hockey which bought up a few thoughts.
1. Do any D2 programs actually want to move to D1, and could they afford it. I can not see St. Mike's playing D1 games in the South Burlington rink.
2. What St. A's players are upset about going D3. The only sport we are probable talking about is D2 basketball which has a long history in the D2 schools. I bet the St. A's hockey team would be very happy to go D3 and with there fine athletic facilities could turn the program into the St.Norbert of the East. 50 miles from Boston in a city with an AHL team is not a bad drawing card.
3. The future of D2 hockey is not great; St. A's is planning to leave and the rest of the teams realize when they are gone there won't be much of a league left. Also there has been a lot of talk about D3 not wanting to play D2 teams because of games don't count. It is getting very competitive as we have seen with Plattsburgh State in getting an NCAA bid and D2 games can effect the regional ratings.
4. In another year or so when St. A's goes D3 the whole think should shake out and a clearer picture of D2 hockey will present itself.
Interesting discussion concerning future of D2 hockey which bought up a few thoughts.
1. Do any D2 programs actually want to move to D1, and could they afford it. I can not see St. Mike's playing D1 games in the South Burlington rink.
2. What St. A's players are upset about going D3. The only sport we are probable talking about is D2 basketball which has a long history in the D2 schools. I bet the St. A's hockey team would be very happy to go D3 and with there fine athletic facilities could turn the program into the St.Norbert of the East. 50 miles from Boston in a city with an AHL team is not a bad drawing card.
3. The future of D2 hockey is not great; St. A's is planning to leave and the rest of the teams realize when they are gone there won't be much of a league left. Also there has been a lot of talk about D3 not wanting to play D2 teams because of games don't count. It is getting very competitive as we have seen with Plattsburgh State in getting an NCAA bid and D2 games can effect the regional ratings.
4. In another year or so when St. A's goes D3 the whole think should shake out and a clearer picture of D2 hockey will present itself.
SNHUPenman
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
SNHU has the money to play DI should they chose to and are able to per NCAA. I have asked the AD previously the status of the program. He told me they care very much and do not want to stop playing hockey. However, there is no way we move down to DIII. We are far too competitive in all of our other sports and already have radio and TV deals in place for basketball. We are the most broadcast team in NH.
St. A's is certainly going to make everyone's hands move on this subject, which I am very happy about. I see St. Mike's trying to follow them down to DIII. Have no idea what Franklin Piece, Assumption, or Stonehill are thinking. Franklin Pierce did have an issue with hazing this year and stopped playing with three games remaining on the schedule. I don't think Assumption or Stonehill would move down as they are competitive in football in the NE-10, and Franklin Pierce is a perennial national title contender in baseball so if I had to bet, they'd all be more likely to drop their programs then move. I also kind of hope DIII teams stop scheduling us...we need to get our own identity in this sport...and we have put it off for far too long.
SNHU has the money to play DI should they chose to and are able to per NCAA. I have asked the AD previously the status of the program. He told me they care very much and do not want to stop playing hockey. However, there is no way we move down to DIII. We are far too competitive in all of our other sports and already have radio and TV deals in place for basketball. We are the most broadcast team in NH.
St. A's is certainly going to make everyone's hands move on this subject, which I am very happy about. I see St. Mike's trying to follow them down to DIII. Have no idea what Franklin Piece, Assumption, or Stonehill are thinking. Franklin Pierce did have an issue with hazing this year and stopped playing with three games remaining on the schedule. I don't think Assumption or Stonehill would move down as they are competitive in football in the NE-10, and Franklin Pierce is a perennial national title contender in baseball so if I had to bet, they'd all be more likely to drop their programs then move. I also kind of hope DIII teams stop scheduling us...we need to get our own identity in this sport...and we have put it off for far too long.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Whatever happens, it'd be a shame for some to go down to D-III (and leave the NE-10 in the process) while others try a different route.
The "D-I Hockey Play-up" strategy would really work best with everyone up, as that bands them all together in AHA and has 8 NE-10 teams (plus Merrimack, who have a better thing going in D-I hockey) for a conference of their own (which can observe whatever scholarship rules they like to help ease the costs).
Although I suppose if they split apart the "D-I" NE-10 schools can just band together in AHA, where cost management is the name of the game.
Whatever happens, it'd be a shame for some to go down to D-III (and leave the NE-10 in the process) while others try a different route.
The "D-I Hockey Play-up" strategy would really work best with everyone up, as that bands them all together in AHA and has 8 NE-10 teams (plus Merrimack, who have a better thing going in D-I hockey) for a conference of their own (which can observe whatever scholarship rules they like to help ease the costs).
Although I suppose if they split apart the "D-I" NE-10 schools can just band together in AHA, where cost management is the name of the game.
Re: State of D-II Hockey
I have two friends from High School, a women's Basketball player and a Football player, who have both said that they're totally against the move to DIII. Based off some of the posts of theirs that I've seen online, this seems to be the opinion of pretty much all the athletes. I can't speak for the hockey team. I know one guy who was formerly a player, but he transferred out so I don't know if he really cares.
SNHU could play in the big arena, and MAYBE if they installed some way of closing off the upper bowl it wouldn't be terrible. There were actually a surprising number of Penmen fans in Tempe when they played ASU at the beginning of the year. Presumably these were mostly online students? Who knows? But ya it would take a lot to build a strong fan base in a big arena like that. SNHU does more advertising than most for-profit schools, so its not out of the realm of possibility that they would want a DI sport to get greater exposure for their brand, but I still see it as unlikely. Even if one or two teams from the NE-10 moved up or down, it would still leave 3 or 4 with nowhere to go. They're not all going to move down to DIII just because of hockey, and I just don't see Stonehill or Assumption as wanting to move up.
I have two friends from High School, a women's Basketball player and a Football player, who have both said that they're totally against the move to DIII. Based off some of the posts of theirs that I've seen online, this seems to be the opinion of pretty much all the athletes. I can't speak for the hockey team. I know one guy who was formerly a player, but he transferred out so I don't know if he really cares.
SNHU could play in the big arena, and MAYBE if they installed some way of closing off the upper bowl it wouldn't be terrible. There were actually a surprising number of Penmen fans in Tempe when they played ASU at the beginning of the year. Presumably these were mostly online students? Who knows? But ya it would take a lot to build a strong fan base in a big arena like that. SNHU does more advertising than most for-profit schools, so its not out of the realm of possibility that they would want a DI sport to get greater exposure for their brand, but I still see it as unlikely. Even if one or two teams from the NE-10 moved up or down, it would still leave 3 or 4 with nowhere to go. They're not all going to move down to DIII just because of hockey, and I just don't see Stonehill or Assumption as wanting to move up.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: State of D-II Hockey
The NCAA has absolutely no control over how conferences are setup. The NCAA set requirements for things like AQs, but they cannot dictate what a conference can or cannot do with who they choose as members.
Now, conferences themselves have rules, and some conferences have rules dictating if enough members play a sport, then they have to play that sport within their conference. That's why the Big 10 got created for hockey when Penn State joined the fray, forcing those WCHA/CCHA Big 10 schools to leave their old conferences and move to the Big 10. But, the NCAA does not control that.
The NCAA has absolutely no control over how conferences are setup. The NCAA set requirements for things like AQs, but they cannot dictate what a conference can or cannot do with who they choose as members.
Now, conferences themselves have rules, and some conferences have rules dictating if enough members play a sport, then they have to play that sport within their conference. That's why the Big 10 got created for hockey when Penn State joined the fray, forcing those WCHA/CCHA Big 10 schools to leave their old conferences and move to the Big 10. But, the NCAA does not control that.
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Re: State of D-II Hockey
Speaking of DII, can somebody explain how things worked back in the 90's and before, before they got rid of the DII National Championship? I looked at Hockeydb.com to try and find some answers, and it seems that even when DII had a championship, teams played together with DIII teams in the same conferences during the regular season. Also there seem to be a fair number of teams (Plattsburg, Bemidji, Mankato, RIT etc.) who at various points played in both championships. So can somebody give me a summary of the history of both the DII and DIII National Championships? From what I found the DII one was held from 1978-84 and again from 1993-99 and the DIII one was held starting in 1984. But I still have a lot of questions. What were the tournaments formats, and how did the regular season work? What separation was there, if any, between the two divisions? Did games between the divisions count towards the rankings/tournament selection process? Were DII schools allowed to offer scholarships? I'm sorry for all the questions, but I love learning the history of the sport and info on DII/DIII is relatively hard to come by when compared to DI.
Speaking of DII, can somebody explain how things worked back in the 90's and before, before they got rid of the DII National Championship? I looked at Hockeydb.com to try and find some answers, and it seems that even when DII had a championship, teams played together with DIII teams in the same conferences during the regular season. Also there seem to be a fair number of teams (Plattsburg, Bemidji, Mankato, RIT etc.) who at various points played in both championships. So can somebody give me a summary of the history of both the DII and DIII National Championships? From what I found the DII one was held from 1978-84 and again from 1993-99 and the DIII one was held starting in 1984. But I still have a lot of questions. What were the tournaments formats, and how did the regular season work? What separation was there, if any, between the two divisions? Did games between the divisions count towards the rankings/tournament selection process? Were DII schools allowed to offer scholarships? I'm sorry for all the questions, but I love learning the history of the sport and info on DII/DIII is relatively hard to come by when compared to DI.
gfmorris
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
All I can pass along is UAH's story.
We went NCAA in 1985-86 and went to Division II, which UAH was (and still is) across the board. After two years, the NCAA stopped offering a Division II title, so UAH moved up to Division I as an independent for five seasons (61-81-6). When a D-II title was offered again for 1992-93, we stopped playing up. In six seasons, we finished second to Bemidji State twice and beat them the other two times. In 1998, the NCAA killed the D-II championship again, and we moved back up, where we've been ever since. UAH has never been a non-scholarship program for any sport.
We did play D-III schools when we were at the D-II level, but we always offered scholarships. We offer more scholarships now that we're in Division I, but that may be more "commitment to the program" than what we could allot.
Our entire tenure in D-II was as an independent, and D-II wasn't very full the second time around. I'm not sure how teams were selected for postseason play — the 1998 title happened my freshman year.
GFM
All I can pass along is UAH's story.
We went NCAA in 1985-86 and went to Division II, which UAH was (and still is) across the board. After two years, the NCAA stopped offering a Division II title, so UAH moved up to Division I as an independent for five seasons (61-81-6). When a D-II title was offered again for 1992-93, we stopped playing up. In six seasons, we finished second to Bemidji State twice and beat them the other two times. In 1998, the NCAA killed the D-II championship again, and we moved back up, where we've been ever since. UAH has never been a non-scholarship program for any sport.
We did play D-III schools when we were at the D-II level, but we always offered scholarships. We offer more scholarships now that we're in Division I, but that may be more "commitment to the program" than what we could allot.
Our entire tenure in D-II was as an independent, and D-II wasn't very full the second time around. I'm not sure how teams were selected for postseason play — the 1998 title happened my freshman year.
GFM
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Thank for the info! That's interesting about the scholarships. I was under the impression that the 6 current DII schools weren't allowed to offer scholarships as a condition of playing most of their games against DIII schools, but if that wasn't always the case I wonder when it was changed. It also makes me wonder how DII schools didn't dominate when they played DIII schools back in the day if they were offering scholarships while the DIII schools weren't. I've found old Bemidji, UAH, St. A's and St. Mikes schedules (most schools have these archives on their athletic sites) and based off their records, it seems like DII and DIII schools were pretty comparable. But ya, i'm curious as to what the selection process was for both Divisions. Based off those DII schedules I mentioned, it looks like DII schools only played a handful of teams in their division during the season. Most of their games were against DIII opponents.
Thank for the info! That's interesting about the scholarships. I was under the impression that the 6 current DII schools weren't allowed to offer scholarships as a condition of playing most of their games against DIII schools, but if that wasn't always the case I wonder when it was changed. It also makes me wonder how DII schools didn't dominate when they played DIII schools back in the day if they were offering scholarships while the DIII schools weren't. I've found old Bemidji, UAH, St. A's and St. Mikes schedules (most schools have these archives on their athletic sites) and based off their records, it seems like DII and DIII schools were pretty comparable. But ya, i'm curious as to what the selection process was for both Divisions. Based off those DII schedules I mentioned, it looks like DII schools only played a handful of teams in their division during the season. Most of their games were against DIII opponents.
bakdraft21
Well-known member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
We had a fun trip when I played at Oswego to play 2 games vs. UAH in Alabama,waaaaaaaaaay
to much fun or we may have won both games 
We had a fun trip when I played at Oswego to play 2 games vs. UAH in Alabama,waaaaaaaaaay
to much fun or we may have won both games SNHUPenman
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
From my understanding the DII hockey schools can offer scholarships...but what is the point.
From my understanding the DII hockey schools can offer scholarships...but what is the point.
Re: State of D-II Hockey
When the 4 current NE "10" teams outside of St. Mike's and St. Anselm were part of the ECAC-NE, the conference rules forbade them from awarding athletic scholarships. I know that the only sport at St. Mike's that awards athletic scholarships is basketball -
As for questions about eligibility for post season play, the http://static.psbin.com/y/7/jdtr46mbx8ofcy/FAQ.pdf St. Anselm's Web site discusses the transition. Also the latest AD came from a DIII school (UWSP), so I suspect he was chosen for his expertise in DIII sports management.
When the 4 current NE "10" teams outside of St. Mike's and St. Anselm were part of the ECAC-NE, the conference rules forbade them from awarding athletic scholarships. I know that the only sport at St. Mike's that awards athletic scholarships is basketball -
As for questions about eligibility for post season play, the http://static.psbin.com/y/7/jdtr46mbx8ofcy/FAQ.pdf St. Anselm's Web site discusses the transition. Also the latest AD came from a DIII school (UWSP), so I suspect he was chosen for his expertise in DIII sports management.
SNHUPenman
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Thanks for that clarification. I believe SNHU offers scholarships in basketball, soccer, baseball currently. No idea on the level of scholarships. Although, it would make sense it is close to the NCAA allotment.
It will be interesting to see St. A's transition- as my wife is an employee of the school, so I will get to see it first hand. I have never witnessed a school transition down. So the sports management nerd within is excited to see how it works, and as far as hockey- how it plays out for the other 5 DII programs.
Thanks for that clarification. I believe SNHU offers scholarships in basketball, soccer, baseball currently. No idea on the level of scholarships. Although, it would make sense it is close to the NCAA allotment.
It will be interesting to see St. A's transition- as my wife is an employee of the school, so I will get to see it first hand. I have never witnessed a school transition down. So the sports management nerd within is excited to see how it works, and as far as hockey- how it plays out for the other 5 DII programs.
hawkhockey
Registered User
Re: State of D-II Hockey
This "down " transition may not be as daunting a task as some might make it out to be. St.A's has had sports relationships with a number of D3.s, not only in hockey but in other sports. The issue is is all about non need based athletic scholarships and the lack of league rules in sports other than basketball.
The fact is St.A's does not fit in the NE-10 as a whole . The return ( prestige, reach, admissions, development etc.) on increasing scholarships , they have determined , in order to be competitive in all sports in the NE-10/D2 , is not worth the increased costs,pretty simple.
Money will be spent on more full time coaches, better facilities and increased FA for all students including athletes.
My sense is that unless Stonehill figures out their Title IX issue, will drop hockey and add mens lacrosse. Merrimack is gone to DI maybe Bentley with them. St.Mike's is looking for a D3 league and Assumption will back football over hockey anyday.
I am betting in 5 years , there will not be DII hockey, just DI,DIII and Club.
As college costs continue to escalate , it is getting increasingly difficult to justify full non need based scholarships($56,000) to a handfull ( basketball (10) and some football) athletes when the largest merit non need based award is $ 19,000.
This "down " transition may not be as daunting a task as some might make it out to be. St.A's has had sports relationships with a number of D3.s, not only in hockey but in other sports. The issue is is all about non need based athletic scholarships and the lack of league rules in sports other than basketball.
The fact is St.A's does not fit in the NE-10 as a whole . The return ( prestige, reach, admissions, development etc.) on increasing scholarships , they have determined , in order to be competitive in all sports in the NE-10/D2 , is not worth the increased costs,pretty simple.
Money will be spent on more full time coaches, better facilities and increased FA for all students including athletes.
My sense is that unless Stonehill figures out their Title IX issue, will drop hockey and add mens lacrosse. Merrimack is gone to DI maybe Bentley with them. St.Mike's is looking for a D3 league and Assumption will back football over hockey anyday.
I am betting in 5 years , there will not be DII hockey, just DI,DIII and Club.
As college costs continue to escalate , it is getting increasingly difficult to justify full non need based scholarships($56,000) to a handfull ( basketball (10) and some football) athletes when the largest merit non need based award is $ 19,000.
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Will St. A's be eligible for NEHL and NCAA tournament next year. Also would be curious if recruiting is getting higher level players now. The program should be very strong with their excellent athletic facilities.
Will St. A's be eligible for NEHL and NCAA tournament next year. Also would be curious if recruiting is getting higher level players now. The program should be very strong with their excellent athletic facilities.
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
If you read the link NUProf posted, you would know that they would become full conference and DIII members sometime between 2019 and 2021...
hawkhockey
Registered User
Re: State of D-II Hockey
Little early to tell. This is the first year that no athlete will receive a non need based athletic scholarship. Basketball and to a lesser degree football will be the most effected. Interesting to note that that the football scholarships are really renamed FA and not a new cost to the college. The "scholarships" fill in the gap between what a kid qualifies for and what the school, on average , gives the student. For example is a student qualifies for $ 25,000 in FA and the college gives $20,000.00
in FA, the scholarship is for $ 5,000.00. A bigger endowment will narrow the gap . DII does not seem to help in that regard.
D 3 helps hockey , as it is the opinion of the coaches and others, they lose 2- 3 kids every year that are difference makers because we can't play for conference or national titles. Maybe just an excuse from the coaches but maybe not . I agree with the coaches based on some first hand conversations with kids and parents.
Little early to tell. This is the first year that no athlete will receive a non need based athletic scholarship. Basketball and to a lesser degree football will be the most effected. Interesting to note that that the football scholarships are really renamed FA and not a new cost to the college. The "scholarships" fill in the gap between what a kid qualifies for and what the school, on average , gives the student. For example is a student qualifies for $ 25,000 in FA and the college gives $20,000.00
in FA, the scholarship is for $ 5,000.00. A bigger endowment will narrow the gap . DII does not seem to help in that regard.
D 3 helps hockey , as it is the opinion of the coaches and others, they lose 2- 3 kids every year that are difference makers because we can't play for conference or national titles. Maybe just an excuse from the coaches but maybe not . I agree with the coaches based on some first hand conversations with kids and parents.
SNHUPenman
New member
Re: State of D-II Hockey
DII hockey shouldn't exist and I think St. A's leaving is the first step towards that end. Merrimack is unlikely to move their other sports up- I would assume they are happy with the status quo and based on their facilities it would be tough to see DI on their radar. Bentley, I could see them as an NEC school.
I agree, St. Mike's will be following St. A's down...just a matter of time. Assumption probably would drop hockey as you say in favor of maintaining their football program. I think FPU would consider dropping their program as well. I have no read on the situation at SNHU...I am told they cherish hockey and don't want to see the sport go away, but there is no way we move down to DIII. We are far too competitive in just about every program right now to sacrifice a shot at a national title each year in baseball & soccer, and deep runs in basketball to give hockey a chance at a title. I'd much prefer a move up in all sports...but time will tell. Things are quite now, and I am not getting answers to these questions...
What is the story with St. Anselm finding a conference to call home in DIII? I heard their top choice isn't going to pan out- but I am not sure what that choice was...what have you heard?
DII hockey shouldn't exist and I think St. A's leaving is the first step towards that end. Merrimack is unlikely to move their other sports up- I would assume they are happy with the status quo and based on their facilities it would be tough to see DI on their radar. Bentley, I could see them as an NEC school.
I agree, St. Mike's will be following St. A's down...just a matter of time. Assumption probably would drop hockey as you say in favor of maintaining their football program. I think FPU would consider dropping their program as well. I have no read on the situation at SNHU...I am told they cherish hockey and don't want to see the sport go away, but there is no way we move down to DIII. We are far too competitive in just about every program right now to sacrifice a shot at a national title each year in baseball & soccer, and deep runs in basketball to give hockey a chance at a title. I'd much prefer a move up in all sports...but time will tell. Things are quite now, and I am not getting answers to these questions...
What is the story with St. Anselm finding a conference to call home in DIII? I heard their top choice isn't going to pan out- but I am not sure what that choice was...what have you heard?
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
Re: State of D-II Hockey
I believe they were looking to try to get into the NEWMAC.
I believe they were looking to try to get into the NEWMAC.