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RPI 2024 Off-Season: Was 2023 – 2024 Just a Bad Dream?

AspyDad said:
So here's how it works... or should. Let's say I'm the AD of an ECAC Team that finished dead last in the league and then let's say purely for argument's sake that a former alum was the HC of a team that is known to produce good coaches in a league that produces good college and pro coaches. If I'm that AD, I might want to pursue him especially when the current coach has a .374 winning % . Looking forward to your response that Mac coaching prowess might not have translated to RPI.
Click to expand...

I would love to have Kirk as our coach, but what difference would it make?
Toe Blake couldn't get last years team to play any better. Our biggest problem is talent. And with the portal, we will be hard pressed to keep a talented player for more than a year or two.
Building a great team under the current conditions is going to be very difficult.
But nothing is impossible so we can always hope.
 
engineerhockeyfan said:
I would love to have Kirk as our coach, but what difference would it make?
Toe Blake couldn't get last years team to play any better. Our biggest problem is talent. And with the portal, we will be hard pressed to keep a talented player for more than a year or two.
Building a great team under the current conditions is going to be very difficult.
But nothing is impossible so we can always hope.
Click to expand...

At this point, a competitive team would be nice. If you build a legit program again, players will stay.
 
AspyDad said:
So here's how it works... or should. Let's say I'm the AD of an ECAC Team that finished dead last in the league and then let's say purely for argument's sake that a former alum was the HC of a team that is known to produce good coaches in a league that produces good college and pro coaches. If I'm that AD, I might want to pursue him especially when the current coach has a .374 winning % . Looking forward to your response that Mac coaching prowess might not have translated to RPI.
Click to expand...

1) I think Kirk has an impressive coaching record. I have only pointed out (correctly) that he has no college recruiting experience. His one year as an assistant on Seth’s staff was as a graduate volunteer who wasn’t permitted to engage in off-campus recruiting. Even JF Houle, who is coming from a series of major junior and professional coaching positions, was a 7 year assistant at Clarkson first. Does this mean Kirk isn’t a great candidate? No, it just means it’s something to investigate when hiring a new coach and may also impact AC decisions.

2) I strongly disagree with your view of how things “should work.” Doing guerrilla recruiting for a new coach while having an existing coach under contract is a formula for a complete lack of trust in an athletic department. Any coach with integrity (and people that know him seem to think that applies to Kirk) isn’t going to engage in secret negotiations or discussions for someone else’s job. If he did, how could he or any coach in the department, trust the AD from then on? It would be a toxic environment. An AD should define expectations and, if she thinks the staff isn’t meeting them or moving in the right direction, then she should fire the existing coach and begin publicly recruiting the best candidate available (including inviting promising alums as candidates). We don’t know what those terms are (although i’ll bet a significantly better record in her 2nd season is one of them going forward) and finances might have been a factor, but it was decided to keep Dave on at season’s end. That should have been the end of it for this year.
 
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rpi82 said:
1) I think Kirk has an impressive coaching record. I have only pointed out (correctly) that he has no college recruiting experience. His one year as an assistant on Seth’s staff was as a graduate volunteer who wasn’t permitted to engage in off-campus recruiting. Even JF Houle, who is coming from a series of major junior and professional coaching positions, was a 7 year assistant at Clarkson first. Does this mean Kirk isn’t a great candidate? No, it just means it’s something to investigate when hiring a new coach and may also impact AC decisions.

2) I strongly disagree with your view of how things “should work.” Doing guerrilla recruiting for a new coach while having an existing coach under contract is a formula for a complete lack of trust in an athletic department. Any coach with integrity (and people that know him seem to think that applies to Kirk) isn’t going to engage in secret negotiations or discussions for someone else’s job. If he did, how could he or any coach in the department, trust the AD from then on? It would be a toxic environment. An AD should define expectations and, if she thinks the staff isn’t meeting them or moving in the right direction, then she should fire the existing coach and begin publicly recruiting the best candidate available (including inviting promising alums as candidates). We don’t know what those terms are (although i’ll bet a significantly better record in her 2nd season is one of them going forward) and finances might have been a factor, but it was decided to keep Dave on at season’s end. That should have been the end of it for this year.
Click to expand...

Well put.
 
Today is 23 June 2024. There are 104 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 5 October 2024 for the start of next season.
 
Wicked Slappaahs said:
That is historically true of the Pens, but Kyle Dubas is the new GM in Pittsburgh, so he will undoubtedly be putting his own stamp on how things are run. I don't think anyone thinks Kirk is ready for an NHL job, but the fact that he went from ECHL to AHL HC speaks a lot toward what hockey people think of his coaching ability.
Click to expand...

Dubas promoted Sheldon Keefe from the Toronto AHL affiliate to head coach of the Maple Leafs, so that's something to keep in mind (although should be noted that Keefe and Dubas had history going back to juniors). I watched the Leafs' "All or Nothing" documentary and it was interesting to see the interactions between the two, although I thought Keefe came across poorly in the documentary--always a danger of these "behind the scenes" productions--and I thought that didn't reflect well on Dubas by extension.

Good for Kirk that he got this job, and I hope he does well. With this move done, I'm wondering whether RPI was ever going to be a real possibility for Kirk, even if leadership was willing to move on from Dave. Some college jobs pay a lot more than AHL jobs but considering an AHL coach doesn't have to deal with the recruiting and NIL nonsense, along with being a step away from the NHL, I can see the AHL being a more compelling career step and chosen over the alma mater.

EDIT: Of course, the counterpoint to that is the new Clarkson hire, which is a move from an AHL position.
 
Today is 24 June 2024. There are 103 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 5 October 2024 for the start of next season.
 
AspyDad said:
At this point, a competitive team would be nice. If you build a legit program again, players will stay.
Click to expand...

5 of Smith's 8 seasons have featured 20 or more losses...by any reasonable measure that is the definition of struggling. Fogarty at Princeton lost 169 games in 10 years prior to his dismissal this spring ...with the notable exception of their 2018 ECAC champs/NCAA run.

The head scratching decision to extend the coach's contract is now the anchor which weighs down the program. Apparently the admin will leave us with no choice but to endure the beatings ...
 
Wicked Slappaahs said:
5 of Smith's 8 seasons have featured 20 or more losses...by any reasonable measure that is the definition of struggling. Fogarty at Princeton lost 169 games in 10 years prior to his dismissal this spring ...with the notable exception of their 2018 ECAC champs/NCAA run.

The head scratching decision to extend the coach's contract is now the anchor which weighs down the program. Apparently the admin will leave us with no choice but to endure the beatings ...
Click to expand...

I understood why Dave was extended and was OK with it at the time. There was really only the run in '19-'20 to hang our hat on, but it wouldn't have looked good for RPI either if they canned a coach after the way COVID was handled and the unfulfilled promises for facility upgrades.

That decision hasn't worked out so far. I don't have any inside information, but I think this year is an important one for Dave and the program, especially with the experienced players who are coming back.
 
DavidNardolillo said:
I understood why Dave was extended and was OK with it at the time. There was really only the run in '19-'20 to hang our hat on, but it wouldn't have looked good for RPI either if they canned a coach after the way COVID was handled and the unfulfilled promises for facility upgrades.

That decision hasn't worked out so far. I don't have any inside information, but I think this year is an important one for Dave and the program, especially with the experienced players who are coming back.
Click to expand...

The first two years of the extension have certainly not been successful, but giving it was perfectly reasonable. Not only did we finish 4th (our highest in quite a while) going into the pandemic, but coming out of it (despite one year off, no practices and then playing in an empty building - limitations well beyond everyone else) we finished a respectable 6th, won a playoff round and took the eventual league champion to the limit in a series we could have won. Things looked OK, not great but competitive. Perhaps it was a mirage as subsequent results went south. This year, with an experienced team and a few solid looking newcomers we must see improvement. It will come down to improved defense for all positions and on-ice situations and goaltending. No team can win consistently giving up 4+ GPG. If we can be closer to 3 and with some modest improvement on offense we'll at least be back in the ECAC mid-tier again. Anything beyond that, with a relatively easy schedule compared to last season's opening murderer's row, will give us a solid overall record and a chance to finally make it back to LP. If not....
 
Today is 25 June 2024. There are 102 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 5 October 2024 for the start of next season.
 
Wicked Slappaahs said:
5 of Smith's 8 seasons have featured 20 or more losses...by any reasonable measure that is the definition of struggling. Fogarty at Princeton lost 169 games in 10 years prior to his dismissal this spring ...with the notable exception of their 2018 ECAC champs/NCAA run.

The head scratching decision to extend the coach's contract is now the anchor which weighs down the program. Apparently the admin will leave us with no choice but to endure the beatings ...
Click to expand...

You have been spot on thru all of this. The 5 year extension was baffling.
 
rpi82 said:
1) I think Kirk has an impressive coaching record. I have only pointed out (correctly) that he has no college recruiting experience. His one year as an assistant on Seth’s staff was as a graduate volunteer who wasn’t permitted to engage in off-campus recruiting. Even JF Houle, who is coming from a series of major junior and professional coaching positions, was a 7 year assistant at Clarkson first. Does this mean Kirk isn’t a great candidate? No, it just means it’s something to investigate when hiring a new coach and may also impact AC decisions.

2) I strongly disagree with your view of how things “should work.” Doing guerrilla recruiting for a new coach while having an existing coach under contract is a formula for a complete lack of trust in an athletic department. Any coach with integrity (and people that know him seem to think that applies to Kirk) isn’t going to engage in secret negotiations or discussions for someone else’s job. If he did, how could he or any coach in the department, trust the AD from then on? It would be a toxic environment. An AD should define expectations and, if she thinks the staff isn’t meeting them or moving in the right direction, then she should fire the existing coach and begin publicly recruiting the best candidate available (including inviting promising alums as candidates). We don’t know what those terms are (although i’ll bet a significantly better record in her 2nd season is one of them going forward) and finances might have been a factor, but it was decided to keep Dave on at season’s end. That should have been the end of it for this year.
Click to expand...

Dave should have been fired this year. I don’t think anyone was calling for the AD to recruit Kirk while Dave was the HC. Finances I suspect is a factor as you pointed out.
 
Wicked Slappaahs said:
5 of Smith's 8 seasons have featured 20 or more losses...by any reasonable measure that is the definition of struggling. Fogarty at Princeton lost 169 games in 10 years prior to his dismissal this spring ...with the notable exception of their 2018 ECAC champs/NCAA run.

The head scratching decision to extend the coach's contract is now the anchor which weighs down the program. Apparently the admin will leave us with no choice but to endure the beatings ...
Click to expand...
RPI hockey has turned into brown hockey. A good season once in a while with a bunch of really bad years. Zero consistency since frigden left. The 5 year contract was unnecessary. Maybe a 3 year but not 5. Dave has one winning season since coming to Troy. It’s insane
 
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Today is 26 June 2024. There are 101 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 5 October 2024 for the start of next season.
 
Not sure why I am engaging in this discussion because it certainly never ends well and is somewhat pointless because it is out of our hands, but a few thoughts. I thought rpi82's comment about where the program was at the time of the extension is accurate. First 2 Smith years were poor but pre-transfer portal and hard to overhaul a roster. 19-20 a success, and I think 80% of us were content with 21-22 after the mess that was COVID. Seemed like given the circumstances they were battling pretty hard and seeing the mess the student-athletes endured, I would say that not extending the Coach would have been a pretty quick way to send the roster all the way back to square one and eliminate anything that was built the prior 5 years. FWIW, they played like 45 games that year, the whole 20 loss thing doesn't apply much to that season.

However, I do align with Engineers comment that 5 yrs was too aggressive. 3 was much wiser given the unknowns, and we are paying the debts of that now. I suspect that finances are a bigger problem than any of us on this board acknowledge. I do not feel like giving a million examples for that take, but read the writing on the wall. Shirley pissed off all the alums and also hated athletics and the dept was severely underfunded. Look at how hard they promoted giving day this year, it seems Bowers and co are trying to fix some of the damage that was done. At the end of the day, a small upstate NY school with 2 D1 programs does not have the budget to compete with the giants, especially when they were poorly run. This trickles down into a bit of everything (coaching decisions, facilities, etc). The school needs to get the $$ figured out and treat this program as seriously as they should if they want to revive it.

Finally, to put it on the record, I think the worst-case scenario this season is a 15ish win season and 7th or so in the league and thus extending this regime. I think for long-term momentum, we either need a change or a season of significant progress (top 5 in league and LP). As always, I will be rooting hard for the Engineers. Wishing you guys a good summer and excited for some hockey coming up soon
 
Today is 27 June 2024. There are 100 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 5 October 2024 for the start of next season.
 
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