Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

There was zero reason for the kid to get confrontational. Well except for people that insist on coddling dumbass behavior and reinforcing the mentality that every person in a position of authority is an immediate threat.

And, of course, the fact that his mom is apparently a candidate for Fargo Citizen of the Year, which I'm sure had nothing to do with this kid's 'tude.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

There was zero reason for the kid to get confrontational. Well except for people that insist on coddling dumbass behavior and reinforcing the mentality that every person in a position of authority is an immediate threat.

This is also the plot of every 1950s teen movie and for that matter every pre-code 1930s movie about street life, and in fact all the Parisian "gamin" stories that go back to the 1840s. I'm sure the phenomenon goes back to the Classical period, if not Sumeria. "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book." -- Cicero, 106-43 BC.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I don't get this one. I understand why the Ferguson one went the way it did but this one makes no sense to me at all.

I agree here. There is no reason for there not to be an indictment in this case.

 

[Slap Shot]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought when you suggested we need to get a dose of the "real world" you meant the real world, not just the world of the suburban white guy who sends his kids to public schools. I thought you meant someone who has lived in a minority neighborhood blah, blah, blah, blah...

None of which has anything to do with whether or not getting in the face of a cop is a good idea.

The problem with narratives such as yours it's you assume Gurt lacks empathy with the plight of the poor. Even if he did, it's not relevant to the facts in this case. In the heat of the moment a cop doesn't have the luxury or time to psychoanalyze what could be deeply contributing to the nature of the kid's misbehavior. I don't think citizens have to be ok with the disenfranchised assuming a cop is going to abuse them and support the violent responses that follow.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I'd recommend some of you read the #CrimingWhileWhite tweets but you still won't admit there's a problem.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I'd recommend some of you read the #CrimingWhileWhite tweets but you still won't admit there's a problem.

yea, thanks. "cheney shot someone, and the guy apologized to him". brilliant.

you owe me 5 minutes of my life back

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I'd recommend some of you read the #CrimingWhileWhite tweets but you still won't admit there's a problem.

Alright, Navin R. Johnson, we get it. You were born a poor black child.

Is there anyone on this board who believes, and has posted, there is not a race problem in this country? Seriously. Can you point out this person's posts to me?

People have expressed their views on whether Darren Wilson should have been indicted, on whether the NYC cop should have been indicted, on whether the school cop in Fargo acted appropriately. But has anyone posted, "I don't believe we have any race issues in this country?"

It seems to me there are two "problems" here. There is a race problem in this country, which I think everyone would acknowledge. Then there is the problem where if someone expresses a view of a factual event that happens to be contrary to that taken by a minority person or group, the speaker is suddenly a racist, or somehow blind to race problems.

 

[busterman62]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Alright, Navin R. Johnson, we get it. You were born a poor black child.

Is there anyone on this board who believes, and has posted, there is not a race problem in this country? Seriously. Can you point out this person's posts to me?

People have expressed their views on whether Darren Wilson should have been indicted, on whether the NYC cop should have been indicted, on whether the school cop in Fargo acted appropriately. But has anyone posted, "I don't believe we have any race issues in this country?"

It seems to me there are two "problems" here. There is a race problem in this country, which I think everyone would acknowledge. Then there is the problem where if someone expresses a view of a factual event that happens to be contrary to that taken by a minority person or group, the speaker is suddenly a racist, or somehow blind to race problems.

You forgot the "White Guilt" Gotta have the guilt

 

[unofan]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

There's two problems at play here. One is the racial component during the initial encounters.

The other is the double standard when it comes to handling police misconduct vs. Joe citizen.

The racial part goes towards whether cops would do the same thing to a white person that they did to the actual victim. The double standard comes into play in any case, regardless of who the victim is. I have no doubt a grand jury would've done the same thing with a cop killing a white victim, they're just less likely to see a white victim (on a per capita basis, anyway).

 

[unofan]

Case in point. A grand jury did indict someone in the Garner case; the guy who filmed it. I wonder if the prosecution treated that one the same as the cop's...

 

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

There's two problems at play here. One is the racial component during the initial encounters.

The other is the double standard when it comes to handling police misconduct vs. Joe citizen.

The racial part goes towards whether cops would do the same thing to a white person that they did to the actual victim. The double standard comes into play in any case, regardless of who the victim is. I have no doubt a grand jury would've done the same thing with a cop killing a white victim, they're just less likely to see a white victim (on a per capita basis, anyway).

Get out of my head!

The other thing that bugs me is the goalposts move all the time. Ferguson? The main issue is the ambiguity of circumstances and the conflicting witness testimony. Staten Island, where neither of those things exist? Now it's the reaction to the lack of indictment.

There is always a way to steer the conversation away from the actual killing.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I wonder if they'll burn down the Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center before the lighting ceremony, or wait until after it's lit.

There were crowd control barriers all around Rockefeller Center and lots of tourists. The protesters could barely get through.

While I did not see it, I was told that on television the protesters were "escorted" through Rockefeller Center by two walls of police standing shoulder-to-shoulder the entire way, forming a narrow corridor through which they could march.


PS statistics indicate that NYPD is just as racially diverse as the population of NYC. When a black cop shoots a black criminal, what happens then?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Case in point. A grand jury did indict someone in the Garner case; the guy who filmed it. I wonder if the prosecution treated that one the same as the cop's...

It won't surprise me if this goes the way of the Rodney King beating case in California, another famous incident recorded.

I expect the feds to prosecute this guy. It is simply very difficult to prosecute cops locally. The local prosecutors depend on the cops. They work with them every day. They know them to generally be good, lawabiding people. And it doesn't further the prosecutor's interest to tarnish that very police force the prosecutor relies on to get convictions in all other cases.

But even if you can get a prosecutor to aggressively go after a cop, you have the problem of getting a local jury to convict a cop. Citizens rely on the police to keep them safe.

The strange thing is, it really isn't about the defendant being a cop. The major hurdle occurs when it's a cop who does the act while on duty.

Not long ago there was a cop in Minneapolis, who while off duty was sitting in a patio bar/restaurant and got offended by some guy next to him talking loudly on his cellphone. A scuffle ensued and the off duty cop beat the heck out of the other patron.

The prosecutors in that case were very aggressive in pursuing a conviction of this off duty cop, and I think they got a jury to convict. But I've often wondered what would have happened if the cop was on duty.

The feds don't care about local cops, or protecting them. If they think they can get a conviction, they'll go after this cop. I do think this case will give the feds slight pause though. The video, while clearly documenting what occurred, does not create the same visceral reaction the Rodney King video did, at least not for me. The case will be all about the prohibition on chokeholds. But I suspect the feds will go after this guy.

 

[unofan]

It won't surprise me if this goes the way of the Rodney King beating case in California, another famous incident recorded.

I expect the feds to prosecute this guy. It is simply very difficult to prosecute cops locally. The local prosecutors depend on the cops. They work with them every day. They know them to generally be good, lawabiding people. And it doesn't further the prosecutor's interest to tarnish that very police force the prosecutor relies on to get convictions in all other cases.

But even if you can get a prosecutor to aggressively go after a cop, you have the problem of getting a local jury to convict a cop. Citizens rely on the police to keep them safe.

The strange thing is, it really isn't about the defendant being a cop. The major hurdle occurs when it's a cop who does the act while on duty.

Not long ago there was a cop in Minneapolis, who while off duty was sitting in a patio bar/restaurant and got offended by some guy next to him talking loudly on his cellphone. A scuffle ensued and the off duty cop beat the heck out of the other patron.

The prosecutors in that case were very aggressive in pursuing a conviction of this off duty cop, and I think they got a jury to convict. But I've often wondered what would have happened if the cop was on duty.

The feds don't care about local cops, or protecting them. If they think they can get a conviction, they'll go after this cop. I do think this case will give the feds slight pause though. The video, while clearly documenting what occurred, does not create the same visceral reaction the Rodney King video did, at least not for me. The case will be all about the prohibition on chokeholds. But I suspect the feds will go after this guy.

Federal juries are local, too. And while I'm sure some of what you say may be true to an extent, I don't see local juries giving cops more deference than say a doctor or an emt or someone like that whom they also count on. Yet they're far more likely to be indicted than a cop.

The key difference is treatment by the prosecutor. If the prosecutor wants an indictment, he'll get it. If he doesn't, he'll sandbag it. it's pretty clear that happened in Missouri and, though we'll probably never know for sure, I'd wager heavily it happened in nyc too.

There's also the whole qualified immunity aspect, which I personally feel has gone way too far. But good luck getting politicians to rein that particular piece of the law back to some reasonable level.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It seems to me there are two "problems" here. There is a race problem in this country, which I think everyone would acknowledge. Then there is the problem where if someone expresses a view of a factual event that happens to be contrary to that taken by a minority person or group, the speaker is suddenly a racist, or somehow blind to race problems.

Well you see there's a race issue in our country, but race had nothing to do with the Zimmerman, Wilson, NYPD chokehold, etc.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It won't surprise me if this goes the way of the Rodney King beating case in California, another famous incident recorded.

I expect the feds to prosecute this guy. It is simply very difficult to prosecute cops locally. The local prosecutors depend on the cops. They work with them every day. They know them to generally be good, lawabiding people. And it doesn't further the prosecutor's interest to tarnish that very police force the prosecutor relies on to get convictions in all other cases.

But even if you can get a prosecutor to aggressively go after a cop, you have the problem of getting a local jury to convict a cop. Citizens rely on the police to keep them safe.

The strange thing is, it really isn't about the defendant being a cop. The major hurdle occurs when it's a cop who does the act while on duty.

Not long ago there was a cop in Minneapolis, who while off duty was sitting in a patio bar/restaurant and got offended by some guy next to him talking loudly on his cellphone. A scuffle ensued and the off duty cop beat the heck out of the other patron.

The prosecutors in that case were very aggressive in pursuing a conviction of this off duty cop, and I think they got a jury to convict. But I've often wondered what would have happened if the cop was on duty.

The feds don't care about local cops, or protecting them. If they think they can get a conviction, they'll go after this cop. I do think this case will give the feds slight pause though. The video, while clearly documenting what occurred, does not create the same visceral reaction the Rodney King video did, at least not for me. The case will be all about the prohibition on chokeholds. But I suspect the feds will go after this guy.

I think the difference between the prosecutor's treatment of on and off duty comes down to how the police force views it. A cop who misbehaves off-duty will have his buddies with him but institutionally the police force are unsupportive because he's just making them look bad -- an off-duty cop is just another perp. A cop who misbehaves on-duty is another matter, because like any entity the force's view is they don't want external oversight imposing restrictions on their workaday activities.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

To (temporarily no doubt) take the conversation away from the anecdotal to the evidential:

A Wall Street Journal analysis of the latest data from 105 of the country’s largest police agencies found more than 550 police killings during those years were missing from the national tally [kept in an FBI database] or, in a few dozen cases, not attributed to the agency involved. The result: It is nearly impossible to determine how many people are killed by the police each year.....

Law-enforcement experts long have lamented the lack of information about killings by police. “When cops are killed, there is a very careful account and there’s a national database,” said Jeffrey Fagan, a law professor at Columbia University. “Why not the other side of the ledger?” ....

To analyze the accuracy of the FBI data, the Journal requested internal records on killings by officers from the nation’s 110 largest police departments. One-hundred-five of them provided figures.

Those internal figures show at least 1,800 police killings in those 105 departments between 2007 and 2012, about 45% more than the FBI’s tally for justifiable homicides in those departments’ jurisdictions, which was 1,242, according to the Journal’s analysis. Nearly all police killings are deemed by the departments or other authorities to be justifiable.

The full national scope of the underreporting can’t be quantified. In the period analyzed by the Journal, 753 police entities reported about 2,400 killings by police. The large majority of the nation’s roughly 18,000 law-enforcement agencies didn’t report any.....

Also missing from the FBI data are killings involving federal officers.

I guess I could as easily have said, "the lack of evidential" at the outset...

 

[Priceless]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

yea, thanks. "cheney shot someone, and the guy apologized to him". brilliant.

you owe me 5 minutes of my life back

I don't owe you squat. I specifically said not to read the link because it would be a waste of your time. You read it anyway, and lo and behold, it was a waste of your time.

You can call me names and say I have white guilt or whatever, but next time you find yourself thinking, "Don't put yourself in that situation" consider the hundreds of thousands of white people who have done the same - or worse - and not suffered any of the consequences. Think if the Bundy ranch had been owned by black man and a bunch of black men showed up and aimed their rifles at LEOs. Consider that a guy who just picked up a toy gun in Wal Mart was shot dead or a 12-year old kid in Cleveland was shot - on film - within 2 seconds of being encountered by a police officer, and he was identified as a 20 year old.

But no, it's white guilt. It's a punch line. It's whatever you want but it sure as hell isn't racism. Nooooo! That's dead and buried. No racism left in the good old US of A.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I don't owe you squat. I specifically said not to read the link because it would be a waste of your time. You read it anyway, and lo and behold, it was a waste of your time.

You can call me names and say I have white guilt or whatever, but next time you find yourself thinking, "Don't put yourself in that situation" consider the hundreds of thousands of white people who have done the same - or worse - and not suffered any of the consequences. Think if the Bundy ranch had been owned by black man and a bunch of black men showed up and aimed their rifles at LEOs. Consider that a guy who just picked up a toy gun in Wal Mart was shot dead or a 12-year old kid in Cleveland was shot - on film - within 2 seconds of being encountered by a police officer, and he was identified as a 20 year old.

But no, it's white guilt. It's a punch line. It's whatever you want but it sure as hell isn't racism. Nooooo! That's dead and buried. No racism left in the good old US of A.

Well clearly it exists, it just doesn't exist unless the story involves a person in a white robe shouting racial epithets. There's no such thing as subtle or unconscious racism

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

But no, it's white guilt. It's a punch line. It's whatever you want but it sure as hell isn't racism. Nooooo! That's dead and buried. No racism left in the good old US of A.

Yeah, I'd say that sums up what we're all saying.