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Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

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Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Gurtholfin said:
A Fair(ish) point.

Some could be better at articulating that poverty doesn't excuse behavior as much as help to explain it.
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Yet if one were to say that being four years old doesn't excuse a tantrum as much as explain it, how would people react in the current context?

Making excuses for unacceptable behavior is a subtle way of condoning it, which in turn suggests that the people who engage in such behavior are incapable of controlling it, which in turn is another example of the soft bigotry of low expectations.

You can expect that people are frustrated by many, many things in their lives. A person's girlfriend uses him and then dumps him. We can understand the rage he must feel...but we cannot condone him then taking out a gun and going to her workplace and shooting her and several of her co-workers.

As Kepler said, how much sense does it make to burn your own house down when you are "protesting"?
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Political protests consist of about 50% locals sincerely exercising their political rights because SOMETHING IS WRONG, 10% Professional Dissidents who hop from protest to protest the way people used to follow the Dead, 10% bored kids who drove in from the suburbs because they want to be on TV, 10% government COINTELPRO infiltrators and saboteurs, 10% media talking hair-dos posing for each other, 5% pickpockets, and 5% young, dumb males who want to burn stuff because that's what young, dumb males do.

The game for forces opposed to the protest is to get the public to obsess about all the other groups and imply that NOTHING IS WRONG.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Twitch Boy said:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...phoenix-police-kill-unarmed-black-man-n261836

Round 3...FIGHT!
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Wow. A Phoenix police foundation sponsors a 5k "Run from the Cops" race? Are you kidding me?

I wish we had more cops who posted here. I would really like their input on all this.

We can sit here and say or agree that a bunch of white, college guys from the northern U.S. don't have any perspective on being black in America, but I think it's also true we don't have any perspective on being a cop in America.

What has struck me about all these incidents is this. We put cops into dangerous, difficult positions. We arm them. We give them the right to use those weapons. In certain instances we even allow them to use deadly force.

What I don't think we do, or at least it appears so to me, is a very good job of helping cops make decisions about whether they should use that deadly force in those occasions when it's justified.

I think of the Ferguson or the Iowa state cases as examples. In both instances I think the officers involved can at least make a reasonable claim, one that's difficult for anyone not present to second guess, that deadly force was justified. But I believe police used to do a better job of deciding, once in that spot, whether they should go ahead and use that force. A better job of waiting just that extra moment to see how it plays out. Especially in instances where you don't see a weapon.

But I don't know. I've never had to make that decision.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

FreshFish said:
You can expect that people are frustrated by many, many things in their lives. A person's girlfriend uses him and then dumps him. We can understand the rage he must feel...but we cannot condone him then taking out a gun and going to her workplace and shooting her and several of her co-workers.
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And yet many on here attempt to justify cops killing unarmed persons for any reason they can find. That logic applies to all sides, not just the protestors.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
And yet many on here attempt to justify cops killing unarmed persons for any reason they can find. That logic applies to all sides, not just the protestors.
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Two realities:

- Just because you are unarmed does not mean you are not dangerous.
A 6'4" 300 pound guy about to punch me in the face is not armed, but he poses "an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death" to me.

- Just because you are armed does not make you dangerous.
Carrying concealed on the way to the shooting range, I'm looking to go peacefully on my way and bother no one: Dangerous I am not (except to paper targets and a backstop).
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
And yet many on here attempt to justify cops killing unarmed persons for any reason they can find. That logic applies to all sides, not just the protestors.
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Who exactly is justifying the choke hold killing or the boy in Cleveland?
 
Gurtholfin said:
Who exactly is justifying the choke hold killing or the boy in Cleveland?
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Well, the prosecutor certainly did, seeing as how there was no indictment.

Sean hannity is, claiming it wasn't a chokehold and he would know as a martial arts student.

Anyone who tries to excuse it because garner was "resisting arrest" is doing so.
 
The Sicatoka said:
Two realities:

- Just because you are unarmed does not mean you are not dangerous.
A 6'4" 300 pound guy about to punch me in the face is not armed, but he poses "an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death" to me.

- Just because you are armed does not make you dangerous.
Carrying concealed on the way to the shooting range, I'm looking to go peacefully on my way and bother no one: Dangerous I am not (except to paper targets and a backstop).
Click to expand...

Garner was not acting dangerously or attempting to punch anyone. The people who escalated that situation were the cops, and specifically the cop grabbing him from behind and then putting him in a chokehold.

One 300 pound man, and let's be honest here, that was fat, not muscle, is not dangerous when outnumbered 5-1 by people with an assortment of weapons and training.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
And yet many on here attempt to justify cops killing unarmed persons for any reason they can find. That logic applies to all sides, not just the protestors.
Click to expand...

unofan said:
Well, the prosecutor certainly did, seeing as how there was no indictment.

Sean hannity is, claiming it wasn't a chokehold and he would know as a martial arts student.

Anyone who tries to excuse it because garner was "resisting arrest" is doing so.
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Huh... so you make a generic claim about people on USCHO, get called out for it and then dodge, dip, dive duck and dodge all you can. Makes sense :rolleyes:
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
Well, the prosecutor certainly did, seeing as how there was no indictment.

Sean hannity is, claiming it wasn't a chokehold and he would know as a martial arts student.

Anyone who tries to excuse it because garner was "resisting arrest" is doing so.
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You stated "on here."


Edit: cF beat me to it.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Gurtholfin said:
You stated "on here."


Edit: cF beat me to it.
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On here, I haven't seen anyone re: Garner situation directly. Plenty have defended Wilson, though. At the least, he should've been indicted (and would've if he weren't a cop).

The Ames, IA/Iowa State case has been brought up. I disagree whole heartedly with SJHovey on that one. The cops disobeyed an order to back off the pursuit (at least once, maybe twice. I can't remember for sure) before getting into the situation where the kid started backing the truck into the cop car that was pinning him in. If it were you or me, we wouldn't be getting off scot free on self defense if we were responsible for escalating the situation.

edit: It's interesting that Fishy hasn't directly commented on Garner, though he is showing a markedly pro-police attitude in general.
 
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Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
On here, I haven't seen anyone re: Garner situation directly. Plenty have defended Wilson, though. At the least, he should've been indicted (and would've if he weren't a cop).

The Ames, IA/Iowa State case has been brought up. I disagree whole heartedly with SJHovey on that one. The cops disobeyed an order to back off the pursuit (at least once, maybe twice. I can't remember for sure) before getting into the situation where the kid started backing the truck into the cop car that was pinning him in. If it were you or me, we wouldn't be getting off scot free on self defense if we were responsible for escalating the situation.

edit: It's interesting that Fishy hasn't directly commented on Garner, though he is showing a markedly pro-police attitude in general.
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I don't think you're disagreeing with me on the ISU matter. I was surprised they got off with no consequences. I thought the video was somewhat troubling, if for no other reason than once they disabled his car, they just leaped out and started firing.

What the kid did in terms of using his car as a weapon certainly opened him up to a very serious response by the cops. But I would have preferred the cops at least yell out a command to exit the vehicle and get on the ground before just firing away.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

The Sicatoka said:
- Just because you are unarmed does not mean you are not dangerous.
A 6'4" 300 pound guy about to punch me in the face is not armed, but he poses "an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death" to me.
Click to expand...

Being fat doesn't mean he poses an immediate threat of great bodily harm. It just means he's fat.

edited because I wasn't sure if we were discussing Brown or Garner
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Here we go again... :(

A Phoenix police officer shot to death an unarmed black man during a struggle and authorities said the officer believed the individual had a gun, in the latest fatal incident amid national turmoil over the policing of black communities.
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Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

unofan said:
On here, I haven't seen anyone re: Garner situation directly. Plenty have defended Wilson, though. At the least, he should've been indicted (and would've if he weren't a cop).
Click to expand...

What evidence/information are you privy to that the Grand Jury did not hear? Witness testimony and the forensic evidence clearly disproved the entire "hands up" meme. The jurors agreed that Wilson feared for his life and took the action that he was permitted under the law, thus the no bill.

As for Garner, having been in that situation I can tell you that trying to take a man (or woman) of his size into custody is not an easy task, even if he/she is only passively resisting. I'm not condoning what was done if, in fact, it was a chokehold as defined by the NYPD regs. However, I have seen a similar takedown used in similar situations.

One issue being overlooked in the Garner case is the coroner's ruling that his death was a homicide. Other than Bill Bratton on Fox today, I've seen little or no reporting that ruling doesn't mean that the death meets the criminal definition of a homicide.

https://gbi.georgia.gov/sites/gbi.../cit.../88332299Autopsy FAQs.doc

It is important to note that the medical term “homicide” is different from the legal definition of “homicide.” “Homicide” in medical terms means that the death is caused by either direct or indirect actions of another person or persons. “Homicide” does NOT mean murder, manslaughter or any negligence has occurred.
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Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It seems that one reason cops are treating every interaction with civilians as a battle is the ubiquity of guns. If we're so concerned about the safety of police officers maybe we could do something about that?
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

SJHovey said:
Wow. A Phoenix police foundation sponsors a 5k "Run from the Cops" race? Are you kidding me?
Click to expand...
It's been around for years and apart from people being fired up about Ferguson/NYC/etc., nobody would have an issue, as I've never heard a problem about this in the past. They have the public start running and then a few minutes later the officers start running and try to catch the public. Just goes to show that what is considered humor most of the time can suddenly become an issue under certain circumstances. Too bad for the charities that would have benefitted from this. Hopefully they can reinstate it sometime soon. It was actually considered a good way to connect with the public.
 
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Kepler said:
It seems that one reason cops are treating every interaction with civilians as a battle is the ubiquity of guns. If we're so concerned about the safety of police officers maybe we could do something about that?
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you aren't seriously suggesting that we disarm the police, are you? :eek:

Otherwise, you are saying that people who illegally own firearms are breaking the law by owning illegal firearms and so we should pass a law making it illegal to own illegal firearms?? :confused:
 
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