Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not to worry, I understand statistics. I also appreciate that the two states have very different demographics. One way or another, Michigan hockey doesn’t need me to cheerlead for it. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for excluding CHL players from NCAA hockey. While I absolutely hate the actions of Mr. Miller, Murphy, Tinordi, Boucher, etc., I acknowledge that it is time to swallow some pride and to modify this outdated rule.

There is a difference between cheerleading and defending. And you'll get my thoughts on the merits of the CHL rule as soon I get an admission that the assertions that Minnesota Hockey is to blame for the rule is unfounded. Though I have already outlined my initial thoughts on the subject in one of my prior posts.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

You missed my point. Eaves said the breakdown was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Your study indicated that roughly 1/3 of NHL players are from Europe. That is inline with Eaves comments. I recognize that it didn't have anything to do with the NCAA.

And sorry, but I trust Eaves more than I trust you. No offense.

This Hockey News story http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?page=campbell1113 looks at the CHL and NCAA cohort of 1988-89. While it was "updated" in 2007, the writer analyzed the 88-89 group. Would like a more recent study, but that's what we have. For that cohort the writer says he's measuring who made the NHL within nine years. He finds that out of that cohort, the CHL produced 79 NHLers and the NCAA 34. Not exactly a 1:1 ratio.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This Hockey News story http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?page=campbell1113 looks at the CHL and NCAA cohort of 1988-89. While it was "updated" in 2007, the writer analyzed the 88-89 group. Would like a more recent study, but that's what we have. For that cohort the writer says he's measuring who made the NHL within nine years. He finds that out of that cohort, the CHL produced 79 NHLers and the NCAA 34. Not exactly a 1:1 ratio.

Thanks for looking that up. Interestnig read. Although, I don't think anyone is asserting that the NCAA was producing as much NHL talent as the CHL back in the late 80's.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Thanks for looking that up. Interestnig read. Although, I don't think anyone is asserting that the NCAA was producing as much NHL talent as the CHL back in the late 80's.

So you are presuming that the NCAA has made huge strides since 1989. Fine. And you are basing that growth in percentage perhaps on the number of NCAAers who went in the first round of the NHL draft this year?

The percentage of Euros in the NHL has dropped since 2006. In 2009-10 it was 23.8%. That's a little less than a quarter, and a lot less than a third. Most of this Euro drop, and it has been well discussed in the Canadian media, is because of Russians staying home in the KHL, and NHL teams becoming more reluctant to draft and sign Russians because they might bolt to the KHL.

It is generally accepted in Canada, a rule of thumb, that CHLers make up half the NHL. If that was the case, and I haven't yet found published stats to back that, the current ratio of CHL/NCAA/Euro in the NHL would be more like half/quarter/quarter. Which I believe someone stated earlier in the thread. But since you want facts over the a priori comments of Coach Eaves, I'll keep looking.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So you are presuming that the NCAA has made huge strides since 1989. Fine. And you are basing that growth in percentage perhaps on the number of NCAAers who went in the first round of the NHL draft this year?

The percentage of Euros in the NHL has dropped since 2006. In 2009-10 it was 23.8%. That's a little less than a quarter, and a lot less than a third. Most of this Euro drop, and it has been well discussed in the Canadian media, is because of Russians staying home in the KHL, and NHL teams becoming more reluctant to draft and sign Russians because they might bolt to the KHL.

It is generally accepted in Canada, a rule of thumb, that CHLers make up half the NHL. If that was the case, and I haven't yet found published stats to back that, the current ratio of CHL/NCAA/Euro in the NHL would be more like half/quarter/quarter. Which I believe someone stated earlier in the thread. But since you want facts over the a priori comments of Coach Eaves, I'll keep looking.

The NCAA has made some big strides since the late 80's, and that is based off of more than just the past year's draft. USA Hockey has grown by leaps and bounds since the late 80's, and so has the number of Americans in the NHL. I'm not saying I have the numbers, because I don't, but a number of articles that I have read, including the one I referenced that quoted Eaves, have mentioned that the NCAA has caught up to the CHL in terms of the number of NHL players it is developing. While I don't discredit the fact that there is a possibility that these sources may be wrong, I haven't seen anything concrete to dispute them.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I believe that the hope of some of us herein is to, indeed, get out of the 1970's -- and the obviously poor decision by the NCAA to follow its then-Minnesota-dominated hockey leadership in cutting off CHL players from NCAA play. Yes, let us ALL move out of the 1970's and admit that the restriction against CHL players needs to end. It was a silly rule, enacted at a silly time, by people who were not thinking in the best interests of college hockey but, instead, were thinking of their own backyard's interests.

Now that we have seen the illogic of that decision -- as MInnesota, Michigan, and new England are all capable of producing fine hockey players regardless of the system -- let us move away from such arcane foolishness.

Or is it, perhaps, that some people are still just a little-too-closed-minded and, perhaps, that little lingering anti-Canadian, or worse Canadian-ignornace, to end a longstanding practice which has long since lost any value, any purpose, and any validity? Just asking. I mean, I don't think we need any long winded sermons on the value of Minnesota hockey, do we? Can we all agree that Minnesota hockey is fine and dandy? Is Minnesota hockey, and Minnesotans, so threatened and worried for their hockey program's survival that the CHL must be kept out, at bay, for all etnernity? I don't think thats the case, is it? Minnesota hockey isn't hanging by a thread, is it? Then why the over-reaction from so many Minnesotans, both here, and on other threads over the years when the topic of Canadians and Major Juniors arises?

You can't have it both ways, friends. If USA hockey (not just Minnesota hockey) was deeply threatened with total failure because of the CHL system, perhaps there would be a place for a protectionist law to save college hockey. But there isn't any such danger. There is no such threat. And so there should be no such law.

Would you please tell me where anyone said anything bad about Canadians? Anywhere please because it is bad enough reading your rants anyways but when you just make up crap like that it only makes things worse.

I wont hold my breathe though...feel free to post 25 paragraphs not discussing what the topic is again...

 

[Handyman]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

But why? Simply because it is the current rule or some a priori truth? If people can't articulate a justification for this position, others are going to presume it is because the supporters of the current rule perceive it as a threat to their programs.

I dont think it is a threat, if the NCAA changed the rule tomorrow I wouldnt go running scared and upset about it. As it is though I dont like that they play in a league with professional players. I dont like that if they dont make it then they can come down here and be overagers like that. It is a personal preference. If you want the honest truth I would prefer if there was no juniors Major or USHL for kids to play in until they are in their 20s and then have them come in. It just seems off to me and always has. (no other revenue sport has this)

Major Juniors, as it is right now, is a minor league system for the NHL. I know some will argue it isnt, but to me it is. As such, that kills amateur elligibility in my mind. And that holds if they come from Canada, Minnesota, Michigan, Finland or Mars.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The NCAA has made some big strides since the late 80's, and that is based off of more than just the past year's draft. USA Hockey has grown by leaps and bounds since the late 80's, and so has the number of Americans in the NHL. I'm not saying I have the numbers, because I don't, but a number of articles that I have read, including the one I referenced that quoted Eaves, have mentioned that the NCAA has caught up to the CHL in terms of the number of NHL players it is developing. While I don't discredit the fact that there is a possibility that these sources may be wrong, I haven't seen anything concrete to dispute them.

I don't think anyone would disagree that USA Hockey has made huge strides with the National Team Development Program. You just have to look at recent US successes at the IIHF Under 20, Under 18, and Under 17 tournaments. Rather I, and some others, are disagreeing with the presumption that the NTDP/NCAA combo has caught up to the CHL in NHL player development. I've already shown that Coach Eaves has already misspoke by stating that the NHL was 1/3 European (in 2009-10 is was just under 1/4), so why should we presume he's correct about the CHL and NCAA proportions being equal?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Would you please tell me where anyone said anything bad about Canadians? Anywhere please because it is bad enough reading your rants anyways but when you just make up crap like that it only makes things worse.

I wont hold my breathe though...feel free to post 25 paragraphs not discussing what the topic is again...

I guess we hate Canadians because we don't have teams named Honeybaked Ham and Little Ceasers. Though he's too ignorant to know that we do actually have AAA teams in Minnesota too (Minnesota Blades, Minnesota Made, etc...)

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I guess we hate Canadians because we don't have teams named Honeybaked Ham and Little Ceasers. Though he's too ignorant to know that we do actually have AAA teams in Minnesota too (Minnesota Blades, Minnesota Made, etc...)

But thy're not Tier I so don't count. (Sorry carryover from Youth Hockey Forum where we both post.)

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I don't think anyone would disagree that USA Hockey has made huge strides with the National Team Development Program. You just have to look at recent US successes at the IIHF Under 20, Under 18, and Under 17 tournaments. Rather I, and some others, are disagreeing with the presumption that the NTDP/NCAA combo has caught up to the CHL in NHL player development. I've already shown that Coach Eaves has already misspoke by stating that the NHL was 1/3 European (in 2009-10 is was just under 1/4), so why should we presume he's correct about the CHL and NCAA proportions being equal?

I don't know, ask Mike Eaves. Seriously, I don't have the numbers. Do you even know how this discussion got started? Let me ask you, do you agree with the original premise that started this discussion?

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

There is a difference between cheerleading and defending. And you'll get my thoughts on the merits of the CHL rule as soon I get an admission that the assertions that Minnesota Hockey is to blame for the rule is unfounded. Though I have already outlined my initial thoughts on the subject in one of my prior posts.

I honestly have no idea where the rule came from and have no interest in blaming anyone for it. I am sure that it had/has plenty of supporters both inside and outside of MN. I can also understand why the older guard of college coaches across the country, may not want to change it at this point. If you told me that people in MN are relatively less enthusiastic about changing the rule, I would guess you were right. Regardless, it is time to consider modifying the rule. In my mind, it simply does not serve a valid purpose.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I honestly have no idea where the rule came from and have no interest in blaming anyone for it. I am sure that it had/has plenty of supporters both inside and outside of MN. I can also understand why the older guard of college coaches across the country, may not want to change it at this point. If you told me that people in MN are relatively less enthusiastic about changing the rule, I would guess you were right. Regardless, it is time to consider modifying the rule. In my mind, it simply does not serve a valid purpose.

Thank you. And to answer your question, I can see both sides. While I agree with the fact that essentially there really is no difference between a USHL player playing in the NCAA and a CHL player playing in the NCAA, it is hard to ignore the fact that this rule is at least partially responsible for giving more American kids the opportunity to play NCAA hockey. That, in turn, has been partially responsible for feuling the growth of USA Hockey.

Without having the opportunity to give it a lot of thought, I guess my initial feelings on this would be that I would be ok with them lifting the rule. However, I would like to see the Minnesota schools continue to give opportunities to Minnesota players, which I am sure they would do.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Twist a pig's ear, and it will squeal.

Xenophobia and self-defensiveness will tend to cloud reading comprehension. You will see what you want. Marching off to war for an overreaction based on clouded judgement is a questionable crusade, at best.

The point of the exercise is not whether Minnesota, Michigan, or Canada have better systems. Nobody said anything about which system was better, worse, or otherwise. Not a single word. The question is whether CHL players should be allowed to play NCAA hockey. It is the NCAA with the rules and restrictions. Is it not appropriate to question the basis of those restritctions? And in questioning the basis of the restritctions, is it not fair to look back in history and see the reasoning for those restrictions?

And the history of those restrictions is based in Minnesota. Its not based in Michigan, for instance, because there is no animosity between Michigan hockey and Ontario hockey. As evidence, I only point out the players of note I was able to watch in the OHL while growing up. Exposure to the OHL in Michigan is signifncant, and accordingly there is likely to be little belief in Michigan hockey circles about the alleged inherent evils of the CHL system.

This was all said to show the real culprit of the NCAA vs. CHL nonsense: Minnesota's municipal-based youth hockey system.

And I guess I need to put a fine point on all of this: Why is the rest of the NCAA, and all of the kids lost eligibility, forced to suffer merely to protect Minnesota's bucolic system?

As I read here -- it appears Minnesota's system is perfectly healthy, safe, and produces many fine players. So why the concern over the CHL?

If the Minnesota system is perfectly healthy . . . and the CHL operates under the same rules as the USHL . . . and golf and tennis NCAA players are allowed to compete against professionals -- as long as they are not compensated accordingly . . . then why the restrictions?

If Minnesota doesn't need the help because their system is so amazing and so secure, then this is finally settled: We can drop the absurd rule, which never should have been put in place to begin with (because, as we've learned, Minnesota hockey has always been, and will always be, safe and secure), and CHL palyers should be allowed to join the NCAA ranks with no loss of eligibility.

Glad that is settled.

I appreciate the passionate defense of Minnesota hockey on this posting, because finally we can see the faulty foundation upon which Mr. Marriucci built this arcane and meaningless rule.

Now the entire hockey world can thrive. Players are no longer prisoners to the NCAA's draconian arbitrary dictates. 15 year olds don't have to make major life altering choices. And College Hockey Inc. can stop spending money fighting a meaningless war and instead spend that money promoting the excellent NCAA Hockey product in the United States -- get some TV exposure, some fan exposure. Concentrate its attention where it matters instead of fighting Minnesota's 40-year old dead problem.

****, do I feel powerful. It is nice to know that minnesota hockey rules the world, and all the rest of you can go down the tubes. makes me HAPPY.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for excluding CHL players from NCAA hockey.

Since the rule exists the onus falls upon those that want to get rid it. Unfortunately, that argument seems yet to have been made and instead replaced by (not by you) the bashing of an entire system of hockey development and creating straw men. I don't know that I've seen anyone here pounding their chest that the current rules must remain intact.

Carry on.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This was all said to show the real culprit of the NCAA vs. CHL nonsense: Minnesota's municipal-based youth hockey system.

Yet this yahoo insists nothing he has said has been an indictment on Minnesota youth hockey. Question, has anyone ever taken anything this blow-hard has had to say seriously?

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I don't know, ask Mike Eaves. Seriously, I don't have the numbers. Do you even know how this discussion got started? Let me ask you, do you agree with the original premise that started this discussion?

Well my point is that we should be careful just accepting numbers because someone heard them and just repeated them, without attribution. That's how myths like the 8 glasses of water per day get repeated and accepted as fact, despite their being zero science behind it. I work at a university, where you can't seem to state any fact in casual conversation without being able to quote a reference. I guess that makes me a little sensitive to numbers being tossed around. I have nothing against Coach Eaves, he's a well respected coach. My issue is more with journalists and bloggers who quote stats from coaches or insiders without doing fact checking. And then those "facts" get repeated all over the Internets.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

But thy're not Tier I so don't count. (Sorry carryover from Youth Hockey Forum where we both post.)

And remember, I never said I was in favor of the D6 rule.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well my point is that we should be careful just accepting numbers because someone heard them and just repeated them, without attribution. That's how myths like the 8 glasses of water per day get repeated and accepted as fact, despite their being zero science behind it. I work at a university, where you can't seem to state any fact in casual conversation without being able to quote a reference. I guess that makes me a little sensitive to numbers being tossed around. I have nothing against Coach Eaves, he's a well respected coach. My issue is more with journalists and bloggers who quote stats from coaches or insiders without doing fact checking. And then those "facts" get repeated all over the Internets.

I referenced an article with a quote from a college coach. If you don't want to take his word at face value, that is up to you. To be honest, I don't really care one way or the other. I posted that comment to prove a point, and you got lost in the details.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

See, now we're all getting there. Once the regional chest thumping slows down to a reasonable patter, we all start to see clealy how silly this rule truly is.

Isn't that fun?

I am -- honestly -- not a random bomb-thrower in the forums. I generally don't post much at all, and when I do its usually complaining about LSSU's lost hockey decade and complaining about the poorly run CCHA. Its almost comical how some of you Minnesotans are a terribly sensative group of people. Its too bad your little state is not exposed to CHL hockey. I suspect you'd all probably like it a great deal. Its like a fast, incredibly skilled USHL. The CHL is a wonderful product and wonderful development system. It is fun to watch, fun to follow. And much like college hockey, you can follow the very best young players. And frankly, I haven't heard a single legitimate argument in favor of the NCAA keeping out CHL kids.

I have heard a lot of self defensive and reflexive gibber-jabber about some absurdly childish puffery about state pride. nice. Don't care. The topic is, and has always been, about the NCAA keeping out CHL kids. For those who discount my understanding that Mariucci was a key player in this rule's creation -- I welcome evidence to the contrary. But none of that changes the core issue: the NCAA forbids CHL kids from playing. Why is that? And is it valid? I say no.